What are the limitations of the Astral?

[dan4112]

From what I've read, when you go to the astral you can manifest your thoughts and desires by sheer intent or willing it into being. So, say I'm in an astral realm with a group of other souls and we live by an astral beach. I figure I want to see some whales so this thought manifests and there are now whales in the ocean. I assume the others there would also see the whales.

So, my question is: is it really that easy? And are there any limitations? I mean, if you can just manifest anything you want, it would seem that no more advancement is necessary for you would essentially have complete control over your reality.

[CFTraveler]

Being a collective environment, you can manifest whatever you intend to (and sometimes, stuff you don't intend)- but the stability of your manifestation depends on how much energy is going into maintaining it. So, if you manifest a whale in an astral ocean, and others are experiencing (and enjoying it) it will last as long as you and others pay attention to it- this can be a long time or little time, depending on others' contribution to the scape.
What is the limitation? Depends on the collective's belief system and attention span. If you are not paying attention to it it will eventually disintegrate, unless others are also paying attention to it.

[Korpo]

Robert Waggoner makes an interesting observation in his book "Lucid Dreams" - the dream may respond to his wishes, but only to an extent. He conjured a collection of naked ladies for example, but yet at other occasions the creations behaved with their own intent, and how a creation would turn out came from somewhere else. Something he definitely found worth to explore, and he wrote about his impressions in his book, seeing the lucid dream as a way to connect with a higher intelligence.

The theosophists believe that the dream and astral environments are created by "astral matter." Astral matter is rushing in, forming the environments surrounding the dreamer and giving him or her a dream-like experience. This experience is like a dream-bubble surrounding the dreamer. This is a very flexible environment, but the creations of the dreamer are limited to it. Kurt Leland believes that one can go beyond such environments into the wider astral plane only if a certain degree of ability exists to contain one's emotions and to stay focussed. Thoughts and intentions manifest consequences much quicker on the astral plane, and according to Kurt entry to the wider astral plane is granted when one essentially does not "pollute" the environment with such random creations and emotions.

Emotions play a role in this. The astral plane is a plane of desire and emotions. Unexpressed emotions and desires can generate again such dream-bubble environments to discharge them. This is exactly what attracts the rush-in of astral matter.

Asking for a change, as you suggested, might be an effective way to change such an astral environment. It leaves the nature of the change to the environment, and demonstrates its creative powers. An intent or a strong desire to experience something will then manifest something, but this process can work both consciously (in lucid dreams) and unconsciously (most other dreams) - in the later case we usually don't make the connection between what we see and what is within us, waiting for expression or discharge.

Kurt also suggested in a recently published newsletter about the nature of the astral plane that this is the place where deceased spirits can for example experience their desires coming through. Unfulfilled wishes that may have accumulated during a lifetime, being discharged through experiences of such desirable realities. This would be part of the function of the upper astral planes.

[dan4112]

So, the question really is how much conscious control do you have over your creations in the astral? Are you consciously in charge of exactly what gets manifested and how it acts or is some higher part of your consciousness creating the manifestation for you to experience based on your emotions and thought forms?

I've often struggled with this. I consciously believe that my consciousness is part of a Source Consciousness that is constantly projecting reality, so anything is possible because anything could get projected. Although I consciously believe anything is possible, I still find that reality doesn't respond to my conscious thoughts immediately. For example, I can tell myself there is a hot cup of coffee sitting on the table, visualize it, and try to believe it's there, but so far no coffee cup has materialized. So, physical reality seems to have built in limitations, which can be overcome if you can access deeper levels of consciousness. But for the most part we all seem to follow certain rules of the game so to speak.

I guess in the astral, the rules of the game are a little different, right? For instance, you can travel by thought and communicate telepathically. But you still don't have complete conscious control over reality. But still you have more control than in physical reality. Am I on the right track here?

Another interesting note: I recently read an OBE/NDE (http://www.nderf.org/glenda_g_possible_nde.htm) where she found herself in the astral plane in a house which was being constructed by a group of astral level construction workers who were surprised to see her there because they weren't finished constructing her house yet. But they telepathically told her that it was ok because they could just work around her. So I guess a good question would be if she wanted to later make changes to her astral home, would she have to ask the construction crew to come back and make the changes or would she have the ability to consciously alter it with her mind?

[CFTraveler]

I've often struggled with this. I consciously believe that my consciousness is part of a Source Consciousness that is constantly projecting reality, so anything is possible because anything could get projected. Although I consciously believe anything is possible, I still find that reality doesn't respond to my conscious thoughts immediately. For example, I can tell myself there is a hot cup of coffee sitting on the table, visualize it, and try to believe it's there, but so far no coffee cup has materialized. That's because physical reality is a medium in which things manifest in spacetime- therefore it takes time, space and manifestation is turning energy into matter. So thinking about a cup of coffee will more than likely cause you to go make a cup or coffee, or have someone call you on the phone and invite you for coffee. Every matrix has it's rules, but still thought responsive.


So, physical reality seems to have built in limitations, which can be overcome if you can access deeper levels of consciousness. But for the most part we all seem to follow certain rules of the game so to speak. And accessing deeper levels of consciousness is the trick, the basis for many forms of magic.


I guess in the astral, the rules of the game are a little different, right? For instance, you can travel by thought and communicate telepathically. But you still don't have complete conscious control over reality. But still you have more control than in physical reality. Am I on the right track here? The operative phrase here is 'conscious' control. You are not just your conscious mind, you are also your unconscious/subconscious/superconscious mind. So unless you get all those in alignment, your results may vary.


Another interesting note: I recently read an OBE/NDE (http://www.nderf.org/glenda_g_possible_nde.htm) where she found herself in the astral plane in a house which was being constructed by a group of astral level construction workers who were surprised to see her there because they weren't finished constructing her house yet. But they telepathically told her that it was ok because they could just work around her. So I guess a good question would be if she wanted to later make changes to her astral home, would she have to ask the construction crew to come back and make the changes or would she have the ability to consciously alter it with her mind? It is more than likely that those astral workers were self-aspects, as many projectors have come to realize historically- that many of the presences they have encountered in the nonphysical, the ones who have certain foreknowledge or special abilities were either future versions of themselves, or self-aspects (anima, animus) that had certain qualities that identified them.
Of course, this is only observation, and speculation....and statistics.

[Korpo]

So, the question really is how much conscious control do you have over your creations in the astral? Are you consciously in charge of exactly what gets manifested and how it acts or is some higher part of your consciousness creating the manifestation for you to experience based on your emotions and thought forms?

Robert Waggoner's experience suggests otherwise. He discovered that the real creator was unseen and unidentified, that all the details he didn't think of were still fleshed out, and surprises included beyond that. The same experience is reported by Bruce Moen who was supposed to create his own spiritual place during exercises of the Monroe Institute's Lifeline program. The reality he created ultimately always started to surprise him, and he encountered entities that had not emerged from his imagination and had their very own mind.

Imagine having to "think up" every tiny detail of a scene with conscious effort. It might certainly not be as hard as painting a picture, but it is hard effort, and the result will always seem lacking. But entering a dream is effortless, and with the same ease whole realities are created around you with an invisible brush, full of detail beyond conscious imagination. That's an enormous contrast.


I've often struggled with this. I consciously believe that my consciousness is part of a Source Consciousness that is constantly projecting reality, so anything is possible because anything could get projected.

The emphasis here is on "part." You don't have the state of consciousness from which the Source experiences all of creation. If you had that, you'd have the Source's understanding and the Source's powers.


Although I consciously believe anything is possible, I still find that reality doesn't respond to my conscious thoughts immediately. For example, I can tell myself there is a hot cup of coffee sitting on the table, visualize it, and try to believe it's there, but so far no coffee cup has materialized. So, physical reality seems to have built in limitations, which can be overcome if you can access deeper levels of consciousness. But for the most part we all seem to follow certain rules of the game so to speak.

Physical reality is slowed down - CF explained it quite well. It is a different environment that teaches different lessons than the planes of higher vibration. It's not that you cannot manifest here, though this is not what you're asking for. Here on the physical plane we call what you ask for materialization, and that is beyond the abilities of most people. I don't think any of us can imagine the state of consciousness needed to materialize something.

CF gives you examples of manifestation as it works on the physical plane, and already the second example is quite beyond what a lot of people on this planet dare imagine - that you can think of something and it is suddenly reflected back to you in your surrounding reality. There's no perceptible cause that links your thoughts to the phone ringing and a friend inviting you over for a cup of joe. Synchronicities are strong indications of the link between human consciousness and all the realities it experiences, even on the physical plane.


I guess in the astral, the rules of the game are a little different, right? For instance, you can travel by thought and communicate telepathically. But you still don't have complete conscious control over reality. But still you have more control than in physical reality. Am I on the right track here?

The word control is a bit problematic here. I was inclined to say that if you had the state of consciousness of the Source, you would have such control. But control is the wrong word, because the Source is not using force. The Source invites us and laid down certain fundamental laws (as in physics) that guide its creation, but it does not exercise control in the same ways we might imagine. We're not far from biblical territory here - the ways of the Source are mysterious insofar we don't have achieved the necessary state of understanding to comprehend them, and our concepts and words fall short of describing them.

I find the term "consensus reality" helpful as it highlights that reality is somehow negotiated between all consciousness occupying it, deriving from the Source. I however do not take it to mean that we know much about how this is brought about or what influences what.


Another interesting note: I recently read an OBE/NDE (http://www.nderf.org/glenda_g_possible_nde.htm) where she found herself in the astral plane in a house which was being constructed by a group of astral level construction workers who were surprised to see her there because they weren't finished constructing her house yet. But they telepathically told her that it was ok because they could just work around her. So I guess a good question would be if she wanted to later make changes to her astral home, would she have to ask the construction crew to come back and make the changes or would she have the ability to consciously alter it with her mind?

I might have a look, but my first hunch is that this is a case of barely understood symbolism. What we experience in nonphysical reality is translated by our inner senses, our skill at translating and decoding energetic experiences, and limited and filtered by our physical plane beliefs and mindset. I wouldn't take such an account as literal, and certainly with a grain of salt.

[greytraveller]

Greetings all
My comment upon limitations in the astral is that emotional baggage and religious conditioning are undoubtedly the biggest limitations. If a person goes out of body with the conviction that something Is possible Then he or she is quite likely to accomplish that thing in the astral/ethereal. Conversely if a person projects OOB with the firm belief that such and such a thing is Not possible then it is most probable that he/she will Not be able to do that thing even if shown guidance and aided by discarnate helpers.
Such reasoning must be behind the belief that people of low morale character usually end up in the lower astral realms after physical death. Even the intervention of spirit helpers and guides cannot keep these people from eventually reaching the planes that match their own levels of vibrations (= lower less enlightened thoughts).

Cheers
Grey

[Korpo]

Such reasoning must be behind the belief that people of low morale character usually end up in the lower astral realms after physical death. Even the intervention of spirit helpers and guides cannot keep these people from eventually reaching the planes that match their own levels of vibrations (= lower less enlightened thoughts).

Hello, Grey.

I don't understand what you're saying here. How is this related to what people believe?

[greytraveller]

Greetings Korpo
I am simply stating that where a person ends up in the astral after physical death is likely determined by their religious and social conditioning during physical life. Thus a person brought up in a strict religious community is apt to wind up in a very similar religious intolerant BST after death. A person heavily involved in drugs and crime while on Earth is likely to inhabit a non-physical location where similar activities take place. etc.

Regards
Grey

[dan4112]

Hello everyone and thanks for the great information! I understand that the Physical is a consensus reality that we all agree to participate in. And I gather that many places in the astral are communities of many souls of like mindset living together and there are various limitations in the astral based on beliefs. But I guess I'm really interested in the fundamentals. What is fundamentally different about the astral. So regardless of my mentally imposed limitations in the astal, what are the fundamental abilities that one has in the astral that they lack in the physical? Like telepathy for instance. Is that a fundamental ability that 99% of astral beings posses?

[CFTraveler]

What is fundamentally different about the astral. As opposed to what? Define telepathy.
If you are in a realm without a body, and communication happens, then there is the ability to communicate. I imagine that 'thought/information' transfer can be described as telepathy, but I don't know if that's what it is.
If you look up the definition of ROTE (it's in the AD Pedia) you can get a better idea of how communication happens.

[Korpo]

Hello, Grey.


Greetings Korpo
I am simply stating that where a person ends up in the astral after physical death is likely determined by their religious and social conditioning during physical life. Thus a person brought up in a strict religious community is apt to wind up in a very similar religious intolerant BST after death. A person heavily involved in drugs and crime while on Earth is likely to inhabit a non-physical location where similar activities take place. etc.

I would expect the following:

Plane and subplane one initially ends up on depend on the state of being one is in when dying. Someone having a lot of "heavy stuff" to clear will probably end up in the lower astral, the realm of unexpressed heavy emotions. A person who stayed mostly clear of the "heavier" emotions would pass through to the middle and upper astral planes, depending on what life has been led.

An interesting description of these subplanes and how they relate to the afterlife is here: Lowest four subplanes of the astral plane (http://www.kurtleland.com/astral-projection-log/2010/199-the-lowest-four-subplanes-of-the-astral-plane) and Upper three subplanes of the astral plane (http://www.kurtleland.com/astral-projection-log/2010/200-the-upper-three-subplanes-of-the-astral-plane)

I would, on the other hand, expect beliefs to affect how one experiences these planes. From what I've read I would also expect that certain beliefs hinder progress through certain stages the afterlife - like not believing one has died (early stage) or not believing in reincarnation (later stage). Such things might or might not correlate with the Belief System Territories Monroe described.

Oliver

[Korpo]

What is fundamentally different about the astral?

Reality manifestation works faster than in the physical, time and space have less meaning than in the physical. Emotions, desires and intent have a rather pronounced effect on the environment one is in and also the environment finds oneself in and can access. What is seen, heard and understood depends heavily on the level of development of the chakras and inner senses. Your shape can be modified.

[greytraveller]

Greetings Korpo
Yes I think that we are basically in agreement here. Although there may be a few exceptions to what you wrote (there Always appear to be a few exceptions to everything) fundamental emotions and beliefs are the deciding factors to where a person ends up in the Afterlife.
Where you wrote

"certain beliefs hinder progress through certain stages the afterlife"

I would simply rewrite as
"certain religious and cultural indoctrination from the past physical life hinder progress through certain stages of the afterlife."

Regards
Grey

[dan4112]

As opposed to what? Define telepathy.
If you are in a realm without a body, and communication happens, then there is the ability to communicate. I imagine that 'thought/information' transfer can be described as telepathy, but I don't know if that's what it is.


Yes, essentially what I mean is thought/emotional transference. This opposed to how things work in the physical. When I'm depressed about my deceased grandmother and I want to communicate this to another person I have to use spoken words to describe my feelings and express my emotion through body language and voice tone. But the other person cannot directly feel and experience what I'm feeling. They may have a degree of empathy and understand my language, but they can't directly experience my emotions or thoughts. However, from my reading of OBE's pretty much without exception I see reports of mind to mind communication where you just know the other persons thoughts and like with Monroe's rote's it seems that you can give someone entire experiental sets or sequences so that they can directly experience something you've been through. So my question is, if you are next to another spirit in the astral can you directly experience what they are thinking/feeling? And if so is there any way to block another being from knowing your thoughts in the astral, i.e. are there any secret thoughts?

Now Korpo you said that time and space have less meaning. This also seems to be suggested that in the astral body you can move by thought. Like Monroe in Far Journey's talks about getting a signal on INSPEC, reaching and going there almost instantly. Other NDE's I have read describe people who think about someone or something and are instantly there with that person or at that place. So, it seems that movement and travel is fundamentally different in the astral. You can fly and float. You don't have to walk unless you want to. And you don't even have to move your astral body through "space" to get somewhere. You can just think about where you want to be and boom you're there. Any thoughts on this from experienced travelers? How do you move around in the astral?

So, as I see it right now telepathy and the ability to move at the speed of thought are specific examples of fundamental differences between the physical and the astral. Also, Korpo mentioned the ability to modify your shape. Now, saying that your emotions and desires have a pronounced effect on the environment is a good point, but it's not specific. I mean, suppose I'm angry because I was abused as a child (just an example, not actually true). Just to say that anger will make my astral environment an ominous place is kind of vague. Without knowing exactly what form that anger will take on in my astral environment I really don't know what will happen.

[CFTraveler]

So my question is, if you are next to another spirit in the astral can you directly experience what they are thinking/feeling? And if so is there any way to block another being from knowing your thoughts in the astral, i.e. are there any secret thoughts? I have never thought of hiding my thoughts- the way I communicate with another purposefully is by immersion, but I never have thought of trying to hide my thoughts- there doesn't seem to be any reason to (at least in my experience).
I have read by various authors (Monroe comes to mind, and Leland too) when they describe beings of light 'powering down' to avoid hurting us, because their energy may be 'too much' for us to handle, a sort of 'cloaking' maneuver. The thing is that information seems to me to be either purposeful (as in "I came here to give you this message") or if incidental, more a merging into an emotional state of the other- not an 'accidental' knowing of something I wasn't meant to know.
I imagine that if I wanted to shield my thoughts (although the idea is foreign to me) I would mentally wish to shield myself, and assume it would work.

Without knowing exactly what form that anger will take on in my astral environment I really don't know what will happen. And this is why I'm a firm believer in 'knowing thyself' as much as possible, do as much introspective work as you can before you embark in these types of disciplines, to avoid being unpleasantly surprised, because your subconscious will help you deal with any unresolved stuff you may have by objectifying it for your conscious mind.

[CFTraveler]

I have to add, that this way of information sharing is usable and used in the physical also. I can always tell when I'm with someone whether they like me or not, before they say a word, so what some may call 'telepathy' (others 'intuition') is used routinely if not entirely consciously in everyday waking life.

[defectron]

Hello everyone and thanks for the great information! I understand that the Physical is a consensus reality that we all agree to participate in. And I gather that many places in the astral are communities of many souls of like mindset living together and there are various limitations in the astral based on beliefs. But I guess I'm really interested in the fundamentals. What is fundamentally different about the astral. So regardless of my mentally imposed limitations in the astal, what are the fundamental abilities that one has in the astral that they lack in the physical? Like telepathy for instance. Is that a fundamental ability that 99% of astral beings posses?

From what I understand all psychic abilities are amplified when one is on the astral.

One interesting story I heard was of a remote viewer who was looking in on a terrorist and was able to use his intent to detonate the terrorists vest in the physical world before he could go commit any crimes. I'm very interested in the possibility of using amplified intention from the astral in possibly affecting change in the physical world. I'm going to try doing some experiments with this later.

[dan4112]

One interesting story I heard was of a remote viewer who was looking in on a terrorist and was able to use his intent to detonate the terrorists vest in the physical world before he could go commit any crimes. I'm very interested in the possibility of using amplified intention from the astral in possibly affecting change in the physical world.

Well, thank heavens (as my grandmother would say) you brought this up. It reminds me of the experiments they've done with people trying to effect random number generators (producing randomly 1's or 0's, or square's and circle's) to try and produce a given number a statistically greater amount. This is done through the person just sitting at the computer while it's running and willing it in one direction. They've found over successive trials a statistically significant fluxuation from chance in the willed direction. However the effect is very small, say 51% square's compared to 50% which is the result you would expect by chance. But this is just done on the physical level, so it would be interesting to have someone in an out of body state or in deep meditation try to effect the computer and see if they get better results.

In fact, an experiment has been done involving transcendental meditators, not effecting computers, but consciousness. In this study the effect was a reduction in crime in the city they meditated in. The size of the group was quite large, about 4,000 meditators who meditated in Washington DC. By the final week that they gathered, there was a reduction of 23.3% in violent crimes in the city. I don't think they meditated with the specific intent to reduce crime, but the effect seemed to be that. Link here: http://www.mum.edu/m_effect/dc_md.html

Actually what I have related above are just side thoughts in my mind right now. The real purpose of this post is to ask: How can astral entities effect those who are living physical lives?

This is a very pertinent and pressing question on my mind. I was reading the book "Ghosts" by James Van Praagh today and he explains that earthbound spirits can latch onto people who have negative emotions and drain their energy. He says that if you have some kind of hole in your aura, earthbound spirits can enter and feed off your negative energy. Now, I've also read about earthbound spirits influencing people through giving them urges or thoughts. I have a hard time accepting this kind of influence because it seems to divert someone's free will. I mean, if you have this negative astral entity giving you the thought to smoke or harm someone you might easily mistake this for your own urge or thought. So, I really need to know how astral entities can effect the living. Can a deceased spirit in the lower astral realms latch onto someone and drain their energy? Can they give someone thoughts or urges to do things they wouldn't otherwise do?

[dan4112]

As a follow up I'll just say that there are two sides to this coin. On one hand you've got near-death experiencers who try desperately to communicate with others, sometimes even screaming at the person "I'm right here, can't you see me?" They inevitably find that they can't communicate with the living, even though they can hear and see the living sometimes even becomming aware of their thoughts.

On the other hand you've got these hypnotic regression therapists and mediums saying that spirits can attach themselves to you, drain your energy and give you thoughts or unexplained urges to do something.

So this is the basis for my confusion. Are the near-death experiencers unable to communicate because they don't know how, but these other disembodied entities have figured it out? Has anyone ever seen any of this spirit attachment while out of body? Anyone ever experimented with affecting the living while obe?

[CFTraveler]

As a follow up I'll just say that there are two sides to this coin. On one hand you've got near-death experiencers who try desperately to communicate with others, sometimes even screaming at the person "I'm right here, can't you see me?" They inevitably find that they can't communicate with the living, even though they can hear and see the living sometimes even becomming aware of their thoughts. Usually they can't communicate with the conscious person, but if the other person is unconscious, there is communication- with the person's energy body. That's why they can 'receive information'- it's not communication as they have learned to know it, but it's communication nonetheless.
Many people who OBE (including yours truly) have found that they see people who are sleeping (or rather, their energy bodies) and find that they can sometimes communicate with them (two-way) if the other person is in trance- recall happens from both. But if the other person is asleep they often either don't remember or remember having a dream about the other person, or if they're awake have no conscious memory, or remember 'all of a sudden' thinking of the other person.
So the divide isn't really as clearcut as it seems.


On the other hand you've got these hypnotic regression therapists and mediums saying that spirits can attach themselves to you, drain your energy and give you thoughts or unexplained urges to do something. Of course, you are looking at how they interpret the information that they're 'psychically' given, there is more than one way to interpret this.


..these other disembodied entities have figured it out? Besides spirits, I'd imagine that 'astral dwellers', i.e. disembodied beings that have never been physical should know how to communicate in their own native medium, it seems to me. Even if we 'physical' beings are just visiting (which is debatable), at some point they'd learn the howto, unless they're not complex enough. Or so I would think.


Has anyone ever seen any of this spirit attachment while out of body? Some projectors have, yes, but as far as I can remember, not 'spirit' attachment as much as 'entity' attachment. (See wildlife in the AD pedia or Robert's writings on self defense on the main site).


Anyone ever experimented with affecting the living while obe? Many have, yes, but mostly with unsatisfying results. Monroe wrote about his in his first (or second) book, and others have too. I'd try the parapsychology subforum to see if you find anything there.

[Korpo]

The main obstacle of communicating with the living through OBE is that the living would have had to develop their psychic abilities to perceive that. Statistically this would imply most such communication attempts fail or are not verifiable in a direct way - like symbolic experiences that are not literally the same as what the sender tried to communicate.

[dan4112]

Interesting thoughts, but I think it will help to give a specific example of the confusion.In Monroe's book "Journey's Out of the Body" he describes an experiment where he went out of body to a woman's house and tried to pinch her.Now, she actually was able to feel his pinch, but doesn't remember anything else out of the ordinary (pages 56-57). The "astral" pinch even left brown and blue marks at the exact spot where he pinched her. So here we have a clear example of someone in the out of body state able to effect physical reality. However, take a look at Monroe's second book "Far Journey's" on pages 192-193 and you will find lots of examples where spirits try to interact with physical reality, whether it's trying to pick up a cigarrette butt or standing in the street with a knife slashing through passersby, but are completely unable to. The woman's hand passes right through the cigarette butt and the man with the knife slashes away, but no one in the physical gets hurt or starts bleeding.

The thousand dollar question is, why was Monroe able to effect physical reality, but these other spirits cannot? Is this a random anomaly?

Another very fascinating case comes from the book "Sight Unseen" by Budd Hopkins and Carol Rainey. It is the story of the supposed abduction ofKatharina (see chapter 6, specifically pgs. 148-150 of the eBook). She was apparently abducted while she was at O'Hare airport. She reports going to the restroom right after landing at 2:10pm. She was able to use the toilet, open and shut doors, and work the soap dispenser. The anomaly starts when she can't get any of the automatic sensors controlling the water faucets to activate. In effect, they weren't registering her body heat. Then, she asked another woman in the bathroom a question and got no response, although the woman did glance in her direction. A few minutes later she reports calling her husband, however the time was now 3:20pm, more than an hour later than it should have been. And then she mysteriously makes it to the baggage claim to meet her friends, not remembering how she got there and looking at her watch to see that it is 3:20pm, as if she hung up the phone with her husband and arrived almost instantaneously at the baggage claim area.

Now this is a confusing story and at first I want to say that she was travelling in the "invisible" or the astral at the time all this happened. That's why the lady in the bathroom didn't respond, because she couldn't see or hear her. And that's why she couldn't register on the automatic hand washes, even though other ladies in the same restroom had no trouble.Also, it could explain how she was able to move so fast from one place to another. The problem with this explanation is, how was she able to use the bathroom and operate the soap dispenser, two very physical activities?

My only explanation at this point is something John Magnus discusses in hisbook "Astral Projection and the Nature of Reality." He talks about how he would often find himself in an astral replica of his room after going OBE. It might look similar, but have furniture that he's never had or things might be out of place. Anyway, he describes this as his mind essentially creating a non-physical replica of his room based on all his old memories and expectations (see pgs. 228-229 for a clear explanation and example). So, based on Magnus's work, I'm thinking that maybe she was just in an astral replica of an airport bathroom and the person she saw didn't even exist in physical reality. But, then again there is an example in Monroe's work of effecting the physical. And I've read books by mediums that say that ghosts, if they have alot of energy, can make things manifest in the physical and manipulate physical objects. So, maybe she could still push the lever to get soap and open the bathroom door. But then, wouldn't the soap just fall through her astral hands?

So, you begin to see how confusing all this is. That was the purpose of the post from the beginning, find out what you can and can't do in the Astral. However, the more I look into it, it starts to look like there aren't any real limitations. Then, the big question pertains to why are the limitations different for some than for others. Why was Monroe able to pinch a woman, but the person in far journeys who is trying to kill people on the street isn't successful? Why do most spirits just find their hands passing right through physical objects, but (possibly) Katharina was able to open doors and operate a soap dispenser?

I don't think it will suffice to say that it's a matter of belief. I don'tthink Monroe had a belief one way or another that he could effect the physical, nor did Katharina have any idea she was even in the astral. So then, what does make the difference? Also, any thoughts on possible interpretations on the case studies I have presented would be welcome.

[Korpo]

Hello, dan4112.

The interaction between Monroe and the woman could be a psychic phenomenon. Her (body?) consciousness might have agreed to produce the sensation/effects he was trying to induce. Such an agreement can be unconscious or with the body consciousness itself. One of the benefits of such an agreement could have been that Monroe got some proof as to the reality of his experiences, which made him pursue his talents more, which in my opinion was something he definitely was here for to do and ultimately benefitted many people.

Monroe's astral body was also much more developed and capable than I would expect that of any lower astral deceased spirit (shade) to be. According to Kurt Leland, a shade cannot readily modify its vibrational frequency. It cannot chose what plane and subplane is on, and finds itself attracted to the place in the astral that resembles the energies stored in its own astral body most. So say the theosophists when describing the astral afterlife. By releasing certain problematic energies over time, shades rise through the afterlife to higher planes.

An experienced astral projector like Monroe can often access many different vibrational frequencies, and a skilled one might therefore be able to shift closer towards the physical and farther away in vibration. The shades could not, but I would think Monroe could. In fact, he could later at will phase onto several different planes. Kurt Leland thinks that Monroe at the end had full access to the physical/etheric, astral and mental planes. (He said so in "The Multidimensional Human" when comparing Monroe's accounts with his model of the energy bodies.)

Similarly, the shades might not have been able to create direct physical effects. I think it is however Monroe that relates that they could affect people (and be attracted to them) that were right then in a similar state to which they were drawn to, for example deceased alcoholics to alive alcoholics who drank themselves into an uncontrolled state.

Oliver

[dan4112]

So, you're suggesting that to affect the physical one has to have a more developed energy body, or the living person's consciousness/subconscious must agree to produce the effects, or a living person has to be in a similar state as the shade, like an alcoholic or constant worrier. Interesting. I'll have to get this book by Kurt Leland. I keep hearing him mentioned. Anybody read "Projections of the Consciousness" by Waldo Vieira? That's next on my reading list.

[CFTraveler]

Anybody read "Projections of the Consciousness" by Waldo Vieira? That's next on my reading list. You may want to ask in the 'Book/Media' section. I've read something from Vieira, but I can't remember what.

[imogen]

I think whether you are in the physical or astral all your experiences with other entities are "permission based." This is why the disciplines with energy, meditation, emotional and mind or consciousness control is so important. Giving into fear, imagination or even one's superstitions could make one's OBE and astral adventures terrifying.

What you THINK exists in the astral / mental areas, indeed EXISTS. In fact, it is as if all energetic bodies and realities exist to parody the endless multitude of beliefs and non-beliefs that we can potentially experience consciously, subconsciously and unconsciously in projections, dreams, and obe's. I think this is why some people seem to have like a "Dungeon & Dragons" experience bubble, and full on fantasy, instead of recognizing what is really around them. If you use the astral realms as a theme park, then that is what you get. If you use it as a scientific laboratory, then you will be given endless experiments. If you use it like the Last Frontier and plan to map and survey it, then that is what you experience. If you use it to heal and help others and yourself, then you will find guides to help you. What is then real?

You either need to be solidly based in a belief system that gives you protection and parameters for your experience, or completely blank slated (wiped clean of all preconceived notions), but awakened to a sense of higher self / Source protection, to experience the astral realms in a way of understanding and control. And that is applicable whether you are alive or dead in the physical earthly reality, and entering the astral realms consciously for the first time or not. You will experience what you think you are at the deepest part of yourself.

[embrace]

Astral does not exist without the observer who perceives it and pays attention to it (just like our physical world). So all the limitations are self-imposed and have to do with how far your imagination can take you (just like in our physical world).