Frustrated and unmotavated

[ProbableReality]

I have been trying to get into having an AP/OBE on and off for about ten years now and I always run into the same problems. Weather I am trying to meditate or listening to any number of Binural, hypnosis, guided visualization audio programs out there I always run into the same walls.

My first problem is that I have ADD. When I am trying to visualize something or focus on my breathing or just relax enough to enter into an altered state my mind inevitably wanders. I can be lost in my head so thoroughly I will be completely oblivious to the instructions playing in my earphones telling me what to do. When I snap out of it I have to start all over again.

Even when I do manage to somehow stay focused enough that I feel I might be getting somewhere, when I'm fully relaxed, BAM! my nose starts to itch and it pops me right out of my altered state of mind. :banghead:

I feel like instead of building any skill of focus in the proses I'm just building a negative conitation to it all in my head. So I am hoping to find anyone who may have had the same problems and is willing to share what helped them to succeed.

Thank you

[Sinera]

It seems you only tried so far to come into trance from the waking state. Have you ever tried to exit trance from the "other side" - from sleep? Many do this, especially beginnners. I have actually all my exits from this method. Although I tried hard (and still do) so far I have not managed to project from direct induction of trance myself, either.

Try affirmations before going to bed (even better: while already in bed while in slumber-state) for several weeks (e.g. "I'm out-of-body NOW" (the now is important!)).
The advantage is that you are already deep-relaxed in trance when you come 'from down (sleep) upwards' instead of 'struggling' your way from up (wakefulness) downwards.

Certainly, the big disadvantage of this might be that you do not have the control as to "when" it works. But this is still so much better than having no exit success at all. Give it a shot, it might work. Good luck.

[CFTraveler]

Hi PR.
It seems to me that there are things that are going to work for you and things that aren't, so I'd like to help you on a step by step basis.
If it's ok with you, I'd like for you to describe precisely what you do as a process now, and go from there.
I think that most programs are very generic (which makes them good for a certain segment of the population) and it is best first to determine what your strenghts and weaknesses are (you already mentioned your concentration skills or lack of them.) Now I'd like to ask you a few questions besides describing your step by step process.

Do you remember things in pictures or sensations? Think about this for a minute or two.

Do you have difficulty sleeping? And, do you have a set daily schedule (school, work?)

How is your ADD managed? (No need to give details, I just want to know general stuff).

If it's too personal, pm me. However I do get lots of pms and sometimes I don't respond to them promptly.
Thanks,
C.

[ProbableReality]

It seems you only tried so far to come into trance from the waking state. Have you ever tried to exit trance from the "other side" - from sleep? Many do this, especially beginnners. I have actually all my exits from this method. Although I tried hard (and still do) so far I have not managed to project from direct induction of trance myself, either.

I assume you are talking about getting up in the middle of the night and attempting an exit technique? I have had limited experience trying this method but so far what I have found is that when I wake up I am AWAKE. If I get up and go to the couch and try something I can not get back to sleep at all.


Try affirmations before going to bed (even better: while already in bed while in slumber-state) for several weeks (e.g. "I'm out-of-body NOW" (the now is important!)).
The advantage is that you are already deep-relaxed in trance when you come 'from down (sleep) upwards' instead of 'struggling' your way from up (wakefulness) downwards.

I must admit that I find it hard to see the point in this. I'm not against it, I just feel a bit silly when I'm lying there talking to myself over and over again. There is always some voice in the back of my head saying "This is pointless." "You know this is the definition of insanity don't you. Saying the same thing over and over again expecting it to become true." I'm not trying to put down any methods out there. If it works for you, I envy you so much. This is just my brain being stubborn.


Certainly, the big disadvantage of this might be that you do not have the control as to "when" it works. But this is still so much better than having no exit success at all. Give it a shot, it might work. Good luck.

I'll give it a try and see how it goes. Thanks for the advice.


Hi PR.
It seems to me that there are things that are going to work for you and things that aren't, so I'd like to help you on a step by step basis.

WOW, I appreciate it. Any help I can get.


If it's ok with you, I'd like for you to describe precisely what you do as a process now, and go from there.

My process right now is that I don't have a process. Not yet. So far all I have been doing is experimenting with different methods in order to find something that inspires or resonates with me. What I have found out are the big obstacles I need to overcome or find a way around such as my wandering mind.


Do you remember things in pictures or sensations? Think about this for a minute or two.

I am an artist so my mind works primarily in a visual way. I have difficulty with feelings and sensations but they are not gone.


Do you have difficulty sleeping? And, do you have a set daily schedule (school, work?)

Often i do have problems sleeping. Mostly due to my snoring and uncomfortable bed. I am a night owl so I mostly get to bed around 4 in the morning and wake up at around noon to one. I am a professional artist so my schedule is very flexible.


How is your ADD managed? (No need to give details, I just want to know general stuff).

Its not. I don't take any medication. If anything it helps me with my art. I don't have any problems with it in daily life. My personality has worked around it. I think one problem I have is sence I have been dealing with ADD my entire life that its almost a reflex that I hold on to my concuss thought like a vice so it it hard to willingly let myself into an altered state of mind. When I let that guard down that's when my mind flits off to do its own thing. Its a measure of extremes with me. Either I have hard control or none at all. One method I try when going to sleep is trying to visualize another location before I fall asleep. If I hold to that image in my head I cant get to sleep. Eventually if i want to sleep at all I have to let go of that control of my mind and let my thoughts go where ever they want.


Feel free to ask me anything else. I truly appreciate the help. If I think of anything else you may find useful I will post it here.

[CFTraveler]

If it's ok with you, I'll ask some more questions so I can get a feel for more. One of the things I am going to ask you to do (besides answer questions, lol- I promise there is a point to them- is to do tasks that at first don't seem to be about projecting- this is because I want to approach the situation on a step by step basis- to see if we can work around your ADD and use your natural skills.
The fact that your ADD is managed without medication makes me think that you can also handle this task.
So here is the next round of questions:
Do you finish the tasks you set out for yourself? For example, if you have to clean a room, and do some artwork, are you able to finish them? (I don't mean in any set order, I mean complete them in a satisfactory way?)
Do you remember your dreams? As someone who doesn't sleep so great either, I tend to remember my dreams. My husband, who sleeps like a log, hardly ever remembers them unless they're outstanding in some kind of way.
And, one that is very important, how are you at letting people tell you what to do? :D

[ProbableReality]

Do you finish the tasks you set out for yourself? For example, if you have to clean a room, and do some artwork, are you able to finish them? (I don't mean in any set order, I mean complete them in a satisfactory way?)

I have a strong tendency to procrastinate but once I start a task I don't have any problem finishing it. If its an art project that does not have a deadline and is large enough to take several days to finish i can prolong its completion for a very long time. Months even.


Do you remember your dreams? As someone who doesn't sleep so great either, I tend to remember my dreams. My husband, who sleeps like a log, hardly ever remembers them unless they're outstanding in some kind of way.
And, one that is very important, how are you at letting people tell you what to do? :D

I can remember my dreams if I put forth some effort. For a month or two I made a point of remembering my dreams and making audio recordings of them every morning. When I did this I was able to remember them more and more. Now that I stopped I can remember perhaps one a week. I don't think I will have a problem building up that ability again if I try.

Also I won't have any problem with doing anything you feel will help. I may have questions but there won't be any problems.

[ProbableReality]

So what's the first step CFT?

[CFTraveler]

I'm glad you replied to this- in the past two days I've had a horrible migraine that half-blinded me, and I couldn't find this thread, so I thought you hadn't replied yet.
My first couple of tasks would be not necessarily OBE or phasing attempts yet, but preparation of your subconscious to be able to experience them.
In your post I read two apparently contradictory statements: "I want to learn", and "I have no motivation". Now, I think that if this is true (we are complicated human beings) we have to reconcile those statements.
You already talked about the concentration, but what I'm going to have you do does not require concentration-yet- it is just a matter of setting up a habit. So if you can suspend judgement and possibly disbelief, I am going to give you these tasks.
Week One:
The first one is something you already said you didn't like- and it is to do an affirmation. If you feel stupid doing it, what you do is you write it down and only say it once aloud, when no one else is there, but look at it before going to sleep, whatever that time is. The affirmation is "I remember my projections". No 'will', and no specifics. Since dreams are a kind of projection, they are included.
The second task is to keep a pen and paper next to your bed and write three keywords every time you wake up, even if the dream memory is foggy. I'm not asking you to keep a journal (unless you want to, but that's another job at another time) just to write three keywords about whatever you dreamed that morning. If you don't remember anything, write whatever you think about as you wake up. Even if it's bathroom sleepy noise- but if you wake up from a dream write the three keywords.
Do this for a week and then I'll give you the next week's jobs.

[ProbableReality]

Okay. We will see how it goes. I will post anything interesting. Again, thanks for your help.

[Korpo]

Hello, PR.

You say have problems to concentrate, that your mind is going "off-topic" hard and fast when you try to go in trance.

I just wondered if you ever tried the following: Lie down and make the conscious decision to let whatever comes up in your mind to let it happen. Do this for a time. Anything is okay. Let it play out. What happens? What do you remember? What do you feel afterward?

This can yield interesting insights into your own mind, and while it might not directly affect your ability to induce projections, it might help in other ways.

I also like the advice CF has given. :)

A general question if you don't mind: Why do you want to AP? What do you expect it to give you that another spiritual discipline can't?

Oliver

[ProbableReality]

Hello, PR.

I just wondered if you ever tried the following: Lie down and make the conscious decision to let whatever comes up in your mind to let it happen. Do this for a time. Anything is okay. Let it play out. What happens? What do you remember? What do you feel afterward?

Sure. I fall asleep. My mind also has this weard way of conecting concepts and images that have nothing to do with one another. It's the same in my dreams. I remember one dream where I was shifting pan cakes around on the table but what I thaught I was doing was choosing the right computer program to kill the virus that lived in the pond in my back yard. Strainge right?



A general question if you don't mind: Why do you want to AP? What do you expect it to give you that another spiritual discipline can't?

Oliver

Oh a whole bunch of reasons. For one thing I want to see for myself if there is life after death. The tests you can perform when out of body to determine this are simple. All I need to do is find something to read when having an OBE. The part of the brain that process words and numbers is dormant when asleep witch is why they appear all jumbled and inconprehencable when dreaming about reading something. If i can read something it prooves that my consiousness is functioning apart from the functions of the brain. This will help overcome the fear of death as well as provide a posibility of contacting my dead father. Then there is simply the possibility of exploration and learning about the wider reality and about myself through personal experience.

Personal expereince is important to me as aposed to spiritual teachings. What others teach or claim to be true can only take you so far. I wouldn't say that I am a skeptic but that I want to be able to come to my own conclusions instead of take someone else's word on faith. I'm not good with faith.

[CFTraveler]

My mind also has this weard way of conecting concepts and images that have nothing to do with one another. It's the same in my dreams. I remember one dream where I was shifting pan cakes around on the table but what I thaught I was doing was choosing the right computer program to kill the virus that lived in the pond in my back yard. Strainge right? Not really, you are just becoming aware of the indexing the subconscious does when you dream; it is actually normal. Surprising sometimes, but normal.

[Korpo]

Hello, ProbableReality.

It might be your reading test won't work. You don't actually read or do anything in nonphysical reality. You experience an energy transformation, and translate it into pictures, a story or a memory to recall when waking up. That also means that when you read in a dream you don't really pick up a book, you just represent to yourself some exchange of information.

As experience with the out-of-body experience and dreams increases, the translation improves. Nonsensical and absurd elements in dreams lessen, and more coherence and clarity is achieved. If your dreams don't make sense it is usually because you haven't paid much attention to them, and thus had no chance to develop these translation skills. The pictures you recall were the best your mind could come up with for what actually happened, energy-wise. It's just a bad translation.

That you additionally recall that you thought you were doing something else is actually a good sign. This already means you had two handles on the energetic experience - a picture translation and a "knowing-sense" translation. The "knowing-sense" is just this - knowing intuitively what is going on without being told. If you develop the later over time things will also make more sense just by themselves. Again, when people don't know why they are oblivious to absurdities in dreams, it also means there are still limitations in the working of this knowing-sense.

I have read in dreams and have failed to read in dreams. But to me this just means I have been exercising my information-extracting sense and the best picture I could find for that is a book. I have also read waymarkers, but I think that only meant I could get some handle on my navigation and position senses (see for example Kurt Leland's book "The Multi-Dimensional Human", it provides an in-depth description of the nonphysical senses). I have been training these senses over and over. And I wouldn't think there ever was a book, so also no actual reading (or even a relation to the same circuits in the brain, if any). If you read Robert Monroe's books you would even see how he received information as balls of energy, not even a remote relation to a book.

While many experiments people come up for the out-of-body state fail (and no wonder if it's not truly a quasi-physical world, but an energetic experience), I found for myself that just having the experiences I had still convinced me being more than my physical body and the existence of an afterlife. So, whatever you do, I think your quest would be ultimately successful in another way you thought.

Oliver

[Korpo]

Sure. I fall asleep.

Try it when sitting upright without back support.

Even if you would fall asleep, you would tilt forward, the motion wakes you up and you can restore position. This is actually good training for experiencing a trance state (mind awake, body asleep), since you constantly tilt back and forth across the sleep border till at some point you might manage to get into the right state to be not as asleep as usual and thus your mind would be still awake. It's a helpful practice when trying to achieve projection.

Oliver

[ProbableReality]

Hello, ProbableReality.

It might be your reading test won't work. You don't actually read or do anything in nonphysical reality. You experience an energy transformation, and translate it into pictures, a story or a memory to recall when waking up. That also means that when you read in a dream you don't really pick up a book, you just represent to yourself some exchange of information.

While many experiments people come up for the out-of-body state fail (and no wonder if it's not truly a quasi-physical world, but an energetic experience), I found for myself that just having the experiences I had still convinced me being more than my physical body and the existence of an afterlife. So, whatever you do, I think your quest would be ultimately successful in another way you thought.

Oliver

You know, I'm basing these ideas on the findings of the prominent authors and researchers of this subject not to mention the one who founded this website and yet I keep being refuted by the most prominent members of these forums. Robert Monroe, Robert Bruce, William Buhlman and others all claim to have preformed similar tests of gaining information when out of body like reading an open book that a third party had left open and then verifying it once back in the body. That tells me that even if what they experienced was not actual physical reality it was at least an energetic duplicate of reality. R.B. calls it the real time zone and goes into detail of what is possible. If what I am experiencing when out of body is actually happening "Out of body" I should not be restricted by the physical limitations of the human brain.

When you are sleeping the part of your brain that comprehends the visual symbols of words and numbers is not functioning. So if you have a dream about reading a book you may intellectually 'know' what is on the page but you wont be able to see the words as words. They will resemble more a Rorschach test, a jumble of shifting blotches, rather anything resembling text. Among lucid dreamers this is a known sign that you are dreaming and is used commonly to make the realization that a dream is happening and so gain lucidity in order to take control. Am I wrong in this? Even if what I read when out of body isn't something that physically exists in the waking world, as long as words actually look like words and not shifting blotches, you instantly have proof that you are functioning outside the limitations of the physical brain. Its a visual thing not conceptual.

Its a bit disconcerting to read about one thing and when you interact with people who supposedly have had these experiences they say "No that's not what really happens." It puts into question the validity of this subject. When I have this experience myself I am not going to make any assumptions as to what is happening. I don't care how shocking the sensations are or how lucid and alien it is I wont label it an "OBE" until I can gain some form of evidence.


I found for myself that just having the experiences I had still convinced me being more than my physical body and the existence of an afterlife.

Why?

You see I have the same problem with religious people that have had some sort of ecstatic experience then claim to have been touched my "Jesus Christ" himself. But once they see a doctor it turns out they just had a seizure. They were already deeply religious and saw this as an opportunity to make all there church friends envious. Its a mentality that has been found to be deeply pervasive among groups of people who gather around a subject that is difficult to verify, be it any religion or paranormal concept. People claim to be abducted by UFO's just so they can feel special or included. Most of them lie to themselves so completely they convince themselves that that particularly frightening nightmare was something more, something real that now that its happened to them, they are special now.

So forgive me if I want to experiment and test and find some form of verification.

I'm sorry if you think i just accused you of being a fraud. I don't know you or what you experienced. But I do understand a bit about how we as humans can be a bit self deceptive. The human brain is so powerful a person is capable of believing anything no mater how contradictory, confusing, counter-intuitive, or just plain wrong in every way. We owe it to ourselves to overcome that. Thats why I have a problem with faith, as well as assumptions, judgment, and most of all willful ignorance.

That being said I deeply appreciate the input and I hope you will continue to assist me if you can. It means a lot to me that you are willing to spend your time helping me with this.

PR

[Korpo]

Robert Monroe, Robert Bruce, William Buhlman and others all claim to have preformed similar tests of gaining information when out of body like reading an open book that a third party had left open and then verifying it once back in the body.

As far as I remember Robert Monroe tried this together with Charles Tart, the paranormal researcher, in a lab setting. Maybe it was with cards. If I remember correctly, it wasn't conclusive (enough?).

Also, if I remember correctly, many site members have done the card test and similar experiments with varying results. Maybe it gives you what you need.

Best of luck.
Oliver

[newfreedom]

They will resemble more a Rorschach test, a jumble of shifting blotches, rather anything resembling text. Among lucid dreamers this is a known sign that you are dreaming and is used commonly to make the realization that a dream is happening and so gain lucidity in order to take control. Am I wrong in this?

Hi All,

I have had at least one lucid dream, that i recorded, where i saw 'numbers' and read them...

[CFTraveler]

I have them all the time, but this is here nor there.
For probablereality: Please join me here http://www.astraldynamics.com.au/showthread.php?12912-For-Probable-Reality&p=104233#post104233

[Sinera]

As far as I remember Robert Monroe tried this together with Charles Tart, the paranormal researcher, in a lab setting. Maybe it was with cards. If I remember correctly, it wasn't conclusive (enough?).Also, if I remember correctly, many site members have done the card test and similar experiments with varying results. Maybe it gives you what you need.
I've collected lots of validations, from different message boards but also from literature (all with internet links!), including Robert Monroe AND Charles Tart (but not the one they do together which was indeed not conclusive enough, although RM recognized then a lab technician he had not seen before (iirc)).

The collection also includes scientific (!) experiments mentioned in literature. However, it (so far) even leaves out two imporant sources of evidence by only concentrating on induced OBE/AP and excluding the evidence found in NDEs and Remote Viewing practice - which is VAST, if I may say so! So there would even be much more to add from these two sources!

The collection has grown again recently, so there really are many examples (certainly of different types and 'evidential' qualities, but each one striking in their own way). You also have to bear in mind that in our Western society many people with experiences do not talk about these things at all (not even in anonymous forums like this one) due to the societal paradigm which is materialism that declares all spiritual experiences as being 'insane', therefore there might be much more experiences with validations that we will never know about.

Here's the link, ProbableReality, maybe it helps to motivate you (a bit), as you can clearly see by this many examples that validations of some kind or another ARE possible. Sometimes it even comes when it is not expected. ;)

http://reconnection.lima-city.de/OBE-Verification/index.html

Hope it helps.
:-)

[ProbableReality]

d
As far as I remember Robert Monroe tried this together with Charles Tart, the paranormal researcher, in a lab setting. Maybe it was with cards. If I remember correctly, it wasn't conclusive (enough?).

Also, if I remember correctly, many site members have done the card test and similar experiments with varying results. Maybe it gives you what you need.

Best of luck.
Oliver

You probably already read this book but I found it one of the best and most comprehensive books out there on this subject. Its "MY BIG T.O.E." by Nuclear Physicist Thomas Campbell. TC was one of the first to help Robert Monroe in his testing and also helped build his first lab. I love this book.

PR

[heliac]

I must admit that I find it hard to see the point in this. I'm not against it, I just feel a bit silly when I'm lying there talking to myself over and over again. There is always some voice in the back of my head saying "This is pointless." "You know this is the definition of insanity don't you. Saying the same thing over and over again expecting it to become true." I'm not trying to put down any methods out there. If it works for you, I envy you so much. This is just my brain being stubborn.



If i could chime in a little here i would say that you are right in that the brain is stubborn, it's not just you. The brain like things that make sense to it and are easy to digest. In some respect this makes me think that your self talk needs to come to you almost naturally, kind of like how you see athletes do when they are talking themselves into the zone. It may feel a little weird but a lot of people do this sort of thing just under different context than obe.

The affirmations/self talk is mental motivation. There is something about saying things out loud that kind of seals the deal but i don't think it is necessary, you can still motivate yourself fine without talking to yourself out loud.