in this situation - what gives?

[psionickx]

they say that the more of what you want to manifest you should emulate IRL as well.
If someone is delusional and carries the assumption with implicit belief that CIA agents are after him ( a conviction being constantly resonated) then why do not CIA agents manifest in this persons life for all to see as opposed to this being a singular objective belief?

[CFTraveler]

Because that is too literal- fear of a government agency spying on you doesn't mean it has to be the CIA or even a specific government agency. If a person is delusional, you have to look at why- is it a delusion born of psychological trauma, or is it 'organic', due to some brain problem? If it is psychologically induced delusion, then whatever the situation that caused the maladaptation may be what is really desired- and that is what might manifest.
And it can manifest in many ways, such as parental abuse (abuse of authority) or even being taken into a mental institution, for example.
Manifestation isn't that simple, because the mind isn't that simple.

[psionickx]

i'm in complete agreement with that ofcourse but what i'm saying to say is where is the line between delusion as opposed to the belief "i totally believe in this and manifest it in the here and now with utter conviction" - that way wouldn't delusion be the ideal factor 'attracting' what you intend to manifest?
to expand on the same theory lets assume we take person A (of perfect mental health) and hypnotize him to the fact that hereafter he will attract CIA agents onto him where as person B needs no conviction to the fact (for whatever, reason be it psychological malfunction) and is ergo "delusional" to attracting them.

[CFTraveler]

Frankly, I don't know the answer to the question- if you can make someone delusional (I think it would take more than hypnotism, I think you'd need psychotropic drugs for that) it's hard to tell what they would attract, because they would think they're attracting them anyway, regardless of what the objective reality shows. So it's a very difficult situation to ascertain, it seems to me.

[Korpo]

I think the role of belief has been overstated in manifestation.

Also, the reality one creates is the reality one experiences. This might be entirely subjective. A delusional person is constantly dismissing objective information and reinforces the belief in anything that fits with the delusion. The experience is then self-reinforcing and leads into ever-stronger delusion when no corrective measure is taking place.

Then there is the feedback mechanism in interacting with others. A paranoid delusional person will before long experience people treating him or her different, withdrawing, avoidance or fear reactions, which will validate the belief. While the concrete fear scenario never takes place, the basic paranoia is reinforced - by misinterpreting the feedback from the outside world.

This might easily devolve into the very scenario one is afraid of - not specifically CIA agents, but the fear of one's freedom being taken away. And then, from that person's point of view, that reality has been created, subjectively.

When it comes to creating objective reality, or at least consensus reality, other factors come into play. Belief doesn't seem to be the dominant factor, for all the fanatic believers into the apocalypse have so far been consistently wrong, even though they fervently believed and were sometimes even downright afraid.

From my experience, reality creation in the consensus reality can sometimes be effortlessly easy when one can be in the flow. Belief doesn't play much into it, except that disbelief and negative expectations might need to be cleared out as obstacles to actually be in the flow.

On the other hand, hypnotism does not get you into the flow. When you are hypnotised to believe something at odds with reality, this will just create friction and a need for an energetic release. Like as if somebody stepped on a garden hose running water. Until the block goes away, energy will collect. Since this removes you from the flow and the now, and takes you out of touch with reality, it actually diminishes reality creation powers when it comes to consensus reality. At least I would think so.

So, to put it another way: The delusional are out-of-phase with the consensus reality. Their reality creation powers are diminished. A big part of their mind is taken up with maintaining the delusion or dealing with it. Try having a conversation with only a neurotic person - a lot of information is not coming through because of all the neurotic triggers taking over, taking that person back into their mind or leading to total misreading of what you have said - because everything is framed in the neurotic's worldview.

Now multiply by several magnitudes and you would find that certain degrees of delusion make exchange between your reality and the reality of the delusional person impossible. It's a self-contained small universe. And it's out-of-touch with consensus reality. In my opinion, consensus reality is carried by the exchanges made by the consciousnesses participating in it.

[CFTraveler]

I think I agree with everything you've said above, Oliver. Will wonders ever cease! :clap:

[psionickx]

ditto

[Korpo]

:)

[Tutor]

if in great darkness a streetlamp shines, would not a multitude of surrounding moths bind its sight within a maelstrom of clouded mind. yet, the heart dares to shine in the darkness. then of a cloud blinded a one looks inward of "wherein does this light come from, that without there is "perceived" attraction toward distraction?".

it is written, that if a man think he is something, then he is nothing (Galations if memory serves). perhaps, if a man reckoned not of himself in such a blinding cloud, feeling that he is quite honestly as nothing, then that which from wherein comes, being Light, reckons such a man as something worthy of redeeming/ed sight.

thinking to search out vs feeling to have been searched out; found as nothing, raised up as something. surrendering all fear to be of God Alone, releasing all self-composing thoughts to be in God Alone. I am afterall, that which before ALL would have me being.

i wish i could relocate a youtube song offered by Farewell2Arms months back in this forum, it titled Reckoner by Radio Head. it has the feel of what i wish to share.

found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAQYU3kRFJk

Good topic, hits me square in the round. Reckoner and Redeemer, God Alone. why do we fear Spirit which reckons to redeem us? perhaps because we cannot each reckon to redeem our individuated spirited self...alone. thus is said, "The Lord, He hath become my God".

if then, (as) the Lord be Light, then where is the darkness of attracted accusations? in that Light raised up, where are they that accused? there are none, and neither are they in His face, nor in His voice uttered...as, "neither do I accuse you"...Jesus.

and...where has this darkness fled as Beauty rests in the eye of the Beholder?


Tim

[psionickx]

actually the problem originates when you read the hyperbole that marketing for "manifestation" writes (with unwavering conviction to boot) "It's time you let yourself in on a little secret like the rest of us used and actually proifted , discovered through consistent scientific research and validated by proof - once you understand the actual working mechanics of Mind Power Manifestation the process events itself amazing mathematical certitude!"


:arrow:
Because that is too literal
:arrow:
I think the role of belief has been overstated in manifestation


tim , thumbsup on the new dp and the sig btw :cool:

[Tutor]

pray for all people, globally