re: The "angels" of Enoch

[aardvark]

Thought I'd reply to this (http://www.astraldynamics.com.au/showthread.php?12738) thread here, since it's in Ask Robert Bruce section.

It is a common misconception that the Enochian Entities conveyed these things to John Dee, but the truth is that these were in fact told by different entities to Edward Kelly during his personal (goetic) practice. The EEs -- nor Dee -- weren't happy about his work with the goetic demons in the least, and there was even a scene where Madimi (Dee's main contact with the EEs) exorcised a bunch of demons from Kelly's vicinity, who was tormented by them (you guys would call them negs, I guess).

[CFTraveler]

Thank you for this, aardvark, and thanks for making my work a teeny bit easier. :-)
Could you perhaps give more detail on Goetia and its history? This is one of those subjects that interest me but I haven't had a lot of time to look into.
I have read in other places that Goetic Demons are not really demons, but planetary entities that have an angelic side, demonic side and godform, and you can learn from them when they visit you- that you should learn from them when they do, but you should never summon them- like a 'force of nature'.

As to negs, we usually call any entity that seems harmful a neg, even if it isn't technically harmful or even independent. A demon though, is a 'whole 'nother kettle of fish'.
Cheers.
CF.

[aardvark]

Could you perhaps give more detail on Goetia and it's history? This is one of those subjects that interest me but I haven't had a lot of time to look into.

Sure.

I intentionally wrote goetia with a lower-case g to differentiate it from the popular 17th-century grimoire Lesser Key of Solomon, whose first book is called Goetia.

During the occult's Renaissance era goetic magic was known as the "black" counterpart of theurgy, or "white" magic. This type of black and white world view was obviously influenced by Christianity; most famous occultists of that time were Christians, including Agrippa, Kelly and Dee among others. [Edit: I didn't mean to imply that there's something wrong with Christianity or with belonging to that particular religion.]

Metaphysically the so-called demons could be considered the other side of the coin -- they are the pathways of the dark side of God. The coin has two sides, but obviously it's still all one coin. They are lower in vibration and very much involved with the material currents. It thus makes sense that the magicians evoke demons for material pursuits.

Now, the 72 Goetic spirits -- with a capital G -- entities first listed in Johan Weyer's Pseudomonarchia Daemonum and later in the Lesser Key of Solomon, are a mixed bunch of entities, whose exact origins are hard to pin down. In my opinion (and indeed, in my experience) it is unwise to attempt to "work with" this hierarchy, since one will easily only invite more problems into one's life. There are much easier entities to work with. Though some people seem to resonate with the Goetics, and do get good results with them without unwanted side-effects. Ultimately in occult the truth is in the pudding.

(Evoking them for binding purposes is another matter, but only an adept should even think about doing this, as microcosmically they correspond with the lowest level of our soul; the shadow with its addictions and bad habits. There are more direct ways to dealing with this, and one good way can be found in Bardon's IIH [the black and white mirrors of the soul]).

I have read in other places that Goetic Demons are not really demons, but planetary entities that have an angelic side, demonic side and godform, and you can learn from them when they visit you- that you should learn from them when they do, but you should never summon them- like a 'force of nature'.

Some of the 72 Goetics certainly seem to have been derived from pagan deities (Astarte is often considered to have been demonized into Astaroth, for example), and they can probably be linked with the planets. For example, Astaroth would correspond with Venus, and (s)he indeed happens to be a Duke, and the Dukes' metal is copper, which is also the metal connected with Venus.
The King Paimon exhudes an obvious Solar presence (in a very overpowering and dominating way), and the Kings' metal is gold (which is, of course, the Sun's metal).

However, not all Goetics are as obviously planetary, at least in my opinion. Instead of the planets, I would rather think of the hierarchy in terms of consciousness; the Kings are higher than the Marquises, which in turn are higher than the Dukes etc.

It is true that there is a hierarchy of Planetary Spirits which are also goetic (with a lower g; earth-bound). Some may have bumped into them via the divination system Geomancy, or even more likely via Agrippa or Golden Dawn.

They are named thus:

Saturn: Zazel
Jupiter: Hismael
Mars: Bartzabel
Sol: Sorath
Venus: Kedemel
Mercury: Taphthartharath
Luna: Chasmodai

They are the lowest spiritual manifestation of the seven planetary rays; the very presence of the planetary energies themselves. When you feel engulfed in loving emotions, you are in essence being influenced by Kedemel. In Agrippa's time they were considered "evil", whereas the Planetary Intelligences which guides them were considered "good". This is of course an oversimplification. They aren't evil, they are just close to a blind force, and need the corresponding intelligences to function intelligently.
It is usually recommended that one only works with them via the Intelligences. For example, should the magician want to meditate on the raw Lunar energy, he could evoke the Intelligence of Luna and ask him to guide Chasmodai's presence into the temple.


As to negs, we usually call any entity that seems harmful a neg, even if it isn't technically harmful or even independent. A demon though, is a 'whole 'nother kettle of fish'.

Yeah, I figured, just noticed the similarity between Kelly's bullies and modern idea of negs.

[CFTraveler]

Sure.

I intentionally wrote goetia with a lower-case g to differentiate it from the popular 17th-century grimoire Lesser Key of Solomon, whose first book is called Goetia.

During the occult's Renaissance era goetic magic was known as the "black" counterpart of theurgy, or "white" magic. This type of black and white world view was obviously influenced by Christianity; most famous occultists of that time were Christians, including Agrippa, Kelly and Dee among others. [Edit: I didn't mean to imply that there's something wrong with Christianity or with belonging to that particular religion.]

Metaphysically the so-called demons could be considered the other side of the coin -- they are the pathways of the dark side of God. The coin has two sides, but obviously it's still all one coin. They are lower in vibration and very much involved with the material currents. It thus makes sense that the magicians evoke demons for material pursuits.

Now, the 72 Goetic spirits -- with a capital G -- entities first listed in Johan Weyer's Pseudomonarchia Daemonum and later in the Lesser Key of Solomon, are a mixed bunch of entities, whose exact origins are hard to pin down. In my opinion (and indeed, in my experience) it is unwise to attempt to "work with" this hierarchy, since one will easily only invite more problems into one's life. There are much easier entities to work with. Though some people seem to resonate with the Goetics, and do get good results with them without unwanted side-effects. Ultimately in occult the truth is in the pudding.

(Evoking them for binding purposes is another matter, but only an adept should even think about doing this, as microcosmically they correspond with the lowest level of our soul; the shadow with its addictions and bad habits. There are more direct ways to dealing with this, and one good way can be found in Bardon's IIH [the black and white mirrors of the soul]).


Some of the 72 Goetics certainly seem to have been derived from pagan deities (Astarte is often considered to have been demonized into Astaroth, for example), and they can probably be linked with the planets. For example, Astaroth would correspond with Venus, and (s)he indeed happens to be a Duke, and the Dukes' metal is copper, which is also the metal connected with Venus.
The King Paimon exhudes an obvious Solar presence (in a very overpowering and dominating way), and the Kings' metal is gold (which is, of course, the Sun's metal).

However, not all Goetics are as obviously planetary, at least in my opinion. Instead of the planets, I would rather think of the hierarchy in terms of consciousness; the Kings are higher than the Marquises, which in turn are higher than the Dukes etc.

It is true that there is a hierarchy of Planetary Spirits which are also goetic (with a lower g; earth-bound). Some may have bumped into them via the divination system Geomancy, or even more likely via Agrippa or Golden Dawn.

They are named thus:

Saturn: Zazel
Jupiter: Hismael
Mars: Bartzabel
Sol: Sorath
Venus: Kedemel
Mercury: Taphthartharath
Luna: Chasmodai

They are the lowest spiritual manifestation of the seven planetary rays; the very presence of the planetary energies themselves. When you feel engulfed in loving emotions, you are in essence being influenced by Kedemel. In Agrippa's time they were considered "evil", whereas the Planetary Intelligences which guides them were considered "good". This is of course an oversimplification. They aren't evil, they are just close to a blind force, and need the corresponding intelligences to function intelligently.
It is usually recommended that one only works with them via the Intelligences. For example, should the magician want to meditate on the raw Lunar energy, he could evoke the Intelligence of Luna and ask him to guide Chasmodai's presence into the temple.



Yeah, I figured, just noticed the similarity between Kelly's bullies and modern idea of negs. Thank you! This has been very helpful.

[aardvark]

Thank you! This has been very helpful.

No problem. I'm glad to hear that, since I'm not that good at explaining complicated things in a brief format; it's sometimes hard to choose what parts of the whole to focus upon. :)