Was this an OBE or LD? (shadow crature)

[CRW3]

Hi, I'm writing about an experience I had about 4 years ago that I'm still confused about, and if possible I'd like some opinions on it.

One time when I was trying to have a wake-induced lucid dream (I've been having lucid dreams since I was born so I'm fairly experienced), I concentrated on the ringing in my ears and let the vibrations pull me into the "dream world". I was thinking of somewhere fun to go in my lucid dream, but I couldn't concentrate because it felt like there was a heavy weight on my chest. I opened my "dream eyes" and I was in my bed and there was a shadowy figure crushing my ribs. I could actually feel my ribs grinding together and bending so I forced myself to wake up. I woke up but kept myself still and I induced another WILD that produced the exact same dream. When I woke up from the 2nd one, I once again remained still to keep my body asleep and try WILD again. I figured the exact same thing couldn't happen the 3rd time, but it did.

The shadow figure kept showed up every now and then in false awakenings and WILDs for loosely a month, until one time it suddenly disappeared in the middle of tormenting me. The creature was moving all over my body and creating intense vibrations, but then it just dissipated. I looked up toward my doorway and there was a lady standing in my doorway facing away from me. As she was turning around, I expected her face to be really mangled and scary (and usually when I expect things that way in a lucid dream they come true) but to my surprise she looked normal. The fact that she didn't look like I feared she would made this experience feel different than a lucid dream. She then said something to me but I couldn't make out what she was saying, then I woke up. After that, I never had a dream about that shadow figure again.

This happened before I knew anything about astral projection, so at the time I passed it off as a lucid nightmare (which I had never really had before since I usually have no trouble defeating evil dream characters). Is it possible that I was actually in the astral plane and that the shadowy figure was an astral being? And that the lady I saw was an angel or spirit guide who got rid of the shadow creature?

Although it still felt like I was in my body, I believe I was seeing the astral plane since I couldn't affect what was happening using power of suggestion like I usually can in lucid dreams.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: After reading a bit around the forums, I think this might be a Dweller on the Threshold

[CFTraveler]

Hi CRW3. I agree that this was probably a dweller. (I take it you prob. read "Your First Conscious Projection"). I have had instances of a similar experience (repetitive the same night) and found that it was a lesson, in retrospect. I am not sure if the 'positive female' (for lack of a better term) was a protective self-aspect making sure that you didn't go through more than you could handle, or an external entity- a facilitator. Either way, it seems you make it through ok.
BTW, Welcome to the forums.

[Summerlander]

Hi, CRW3! I usually post on another site that holds a more pragmatic view on the whole thing. You really want to know what I think? That OOBEs, Astral Projection, DILDs, WILDs and False Awakenings are one and the same...just different entries. They are all labels that we have come up with. It is a peculiar state of consciousness that can be entered before, during and after sleep. We merely call it the phase.

EEG scans have been able to identify the phase as a hybrid state between wakefulness and dreaming. Here are differences which will help you to distinguish between states of mind:

Waking State:

Also known as wakefulness. In this state, people perceive the physical realm. An individual who is awake is conscious, self-aware, and there is realism of perception. The environment is stable and there is no required effort to enter this state. The perceived world seems to follow set rules, and, only on a quantum level, do things appear to be less logical and more uncertain.

Dream State:

This entails non-lucid dreams and falling asleep is all that is needed to enter this state. Self-awareness is absent and the unconscious mind often rules over the conscious one. The dreamer is immersed in plots and often detached from waking life memories. The experience can be vivid or vague, and, despite the instability, the illogical is accepted as being logical and true. Certain techniques can be employed to boost dream recall.

Phase State:

This entails out-of-body experiences (OOBEs or OBEs) and lucid dreams. Both are one and the same as a practitioner of this state has the distinct sensation of being elsewhere other than the physical body. This elusive state can be entered before, during, and after sleep. Effort is required in order to enter the phase voluntarily, although, some experiences are induced involuntarily. The practitioner is conscious and self-aware in what appears to be a reality of a mental nature which often emulates the waking state experience. One perceives a realistic phantom reality that can surpass the quality of the waking world, and, although phase environments can appear stable, they can also transmute. It is possible to slip into the dream state from here and vice versa.

This is a diagram taken from Michael Raduga's School of Out of Body Travel:

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[CRW3]

Hi CRW3. I agree that this was probably a dweller. (I take it you prob. read "Your First Conscious Projection"). I have had instances of a similar experience (repetitive the same night) and found that it was a lesson, in retrospect. I am not sure if the 'positive female' (for lack of a better term) was a protective self-aspect making sure that you didn't go through more than you could handle, or an external entity- a facilitator. Either way, it seems you make it through ok.
BTW, Welcome to the forums.

Thanks! That clears things up. I have some more questions though :p

Is it true that while projected and separated from your physical body, you have no sense of touch at all? Also what should I have done to separate when I saw that creature on me?

Also recently while attempting to project, I actually started to see my room around me as if I was floating, but my bed was empty and the bedsheets were the wrong colour, so I passed it off as an LD. Do you think it was just an LD?




Hi, CRW3! I usually post on another site that holds a more pragmatic view on the whole thing. You really want to know what I think? That OOBEs, Astral Projection, DILDs, WILDs and False Awakenings are one and the same...just different entries. They are all labels that we have come up with. It is a peculiar state of consciousness that can be entered before, during and after sleep. We merely call it the phase.


Now this is what confuses me. I've heard this theory before but I've also heard many people say the difference between the LD state and the AP state is very clear once you've actually projected.

[greytraveller]

Hallo CRW3
CFTraveler is probably right about in that it "was probably a dweller". Such experiences are actually relatively common.
Did you experience sleep paralysis at any point that night? If so you could have been about ready to go out of body (= OBE). But for whatever reason, either a troubled aspect of yourself manifesting as a negative thought form or an actual objective astral being, the OBE never happened. Such experiences Can be quite unnerving. But I wouldn't worry too much about it because, fortunately, such occurrences are rare and are usually, at worst, a dramatic learning experience.

Regards
Grey

[Beekeeper]

But for whatever reason, either a troubled aspect of yourself manifesting as a negative thought form...

Perhaps you could take this a step further, CRW3, and look at it metaphorically as something you needed to get off your chest that night.

That said, I recently had a similar experience returning from a lucid dream and I'm pretty confident it's something about respective energy bodies being misaligned and your own misinterpretation of events, aka Dweller.

[Summerlander]

Thanks! That clears things up. I have some more questions though :p
Is it true that while projected and separated from your physical body, you have no sense of touch at all?

No, not true. You can touch objects and feel them as though solid. It all depends on how deep the phase is. Sensory amplification techniques can deepen the state and the environment will become more realistic to the point of emulating or even surpassing the physical world perception. All senses are possible in the phase. Likewise, you can also switch them off at will.



Also recently while attempting to project, I actually started to see my room around me as if I was floating, but my bed was empty and the bedsheets were the wrong colour, so I passed it off as an LD. Do you think it was just an LD?

That is your answer right there, from you PERSONAL experience, in that OOBEs and lucid dreams are the same phenomenon. Your mind will try to get your bedroom environment replicated after a perceived separation from the body but it is very often inaccurate. Why can it afford to be inaccurate? Because you can handle it and it doesn't put you in any harm. It is a mental construct manifest from expectation but possibly slightly altered due to other thoughts from the unconscious getting in the way. You can think of it as a mental playdoh mold with dents.



Now this is what confuses me. I've heard this theory before but I've also heard many people say the difference between the LD state and the AP state is very clear once you've actually projected.

The different depths of the phase can often lead people to believe that they are in different realms. When there is fuzziness and no apparent anomalies are spotted, one can believe that it is a RTZ or Locale I projection. When the phase is deep, the environment is hyper-vivid, realistic, surreal, and, especially when anomalies are spotted, one can believe that it is the astral plane they are in.

In three years of entering the phase I have not really noticed any clear distinctions between OOBEs and LDs. To me, OOBEs are just WILDs which include a perceived separation from the body and the bedroom replica is simulated. There have been some instances where there is apparent telepathy and it seems that we have explored the minds of others...but that is as far as I go.

From my experience, it is the same state which can be enter before, during and after sleep. By no means take this as gospel. I'm only expressing the conclusion I have arrived at after putting all my experiences into perspective. I have gone through many paradigm shifts but, when applying a pragmatic outlook...this is it.

It has become apparent to scientists that both brain hemispheres are involved in dreaming. They have performed experiments on split-brain subjects. It was found that their dreaming lacks imagination. However, the content was very utilitarian and true to life.

When it comes to the phase and the possibility that it may be governed by the amazing potential of the subconscious mind, it is feasible to think that some experiences will be more accurate or more true to life than others. Hence a perceived dichotomy within the phase phenomenon such as Locale I and Locale II (to use Robert Monroe's terminology).

Let's also remember that some individuals appear to have photographic memory (which can help). Isn't it interesting that Locale 2 projections and lucid dreams are more common than RTZ in general?

Anyway, just pointing a few things out and offering you to consider other avenues besides the New Age, Spiritualist and mystical views. Feel free to believe what you want, of course but, pay more attention to what your experiences tell you and less heed of what has been written by someone else.

[CRW3]

Anyway, just pointing a few things out and offering you to consider other avenues besides the New Age, Spiritualist and mystical views. Feel free to believe what you want, of course but, pay more attention to what your experiences tell you and less heed of what has been written by someone else.

Good advice. I need to do more experimenting rather than reading. And I do consider your belief as a strong possibility. One time I was reading an experience of someone who believes it too and they were saying how they could meet other dreamers while projecting/LDing, and usually the other dreamers would be non-lucid. He would tell them all that they're dreaming, and some would snap out of their trance but others wouldn't.

Here's an example:

...The final episode I recall was the most dramatic. I was moving in the void and somehow locked into an episode. I seemed to be on an outdoor patio in a park or something. There was a group of people sitting at a picnic table and a few feet away another group sitting at one of thoses round, white metal patio tables. They seemed to all be together. I approached them with my standard question of the evening: I asked them if anyone knew the date. I got a bunch of nonsensical answers from the people at the round table, things like "Its the 2nd". I'd say "the 2nd of what?" and get no reasonable response. But then one of the guys at the picnic table said "There is no date, this is a dream". I heard this and was startled like I haven't been in a long time. I turned around and began talking to this guy. He was looking at all his friends as if to say 'you dummys, there can't be any date now because we are dreaming'. He looked to be about 35, brown hair, had on preppy clothes and looked about as modern American as you can get. I became very excited. I asked "you know we are dreaming?" He acknowledged this. I couldn't believe how lucid *he* was. He seemed confused a bit, as if he was not used to being so lucid while he was dreaming. I assured him he was correct. I said "That's right we are dreaming right now." Then I asked him where he was from. He said Minneapolis, Minnesota, and made some little joke about the town and chuckled. Again, I was overwhelmed by his lucidity. His answers were quick and succinct, though he had that subtle confusion that comes with being lucid in the dream world when you are not used to doing so. He looked as if he was surprised by his own responses as much as I was. I told him that I too was dreaming and that I was from Detroit, Michigan. I told him that we were both dreaming right now and then I asked him again what was the date. He thought about it for a second and said "The 21st, no, no, the 2nd of December". I sh*t my pants! He *was real*. I couldn't believe it! This had never happened to me before. I immediately said, "Look, tell me your name and phone number and I am going to wake myself up right now and call you in Minneapolis". He told me his name, which I do not remember now. He was sitting there trying to recall his phone number. I could tell he was having difficulty in doing so, which is not uncommon for me even when I project. And then, almost without warning, I faded out and was lying awake in my bed. As I felt myself fading I became infinitely disappointed. I awoke thinking "So close, yet so far". Yet, at the same time, I was very excited. This is the first time I ever met and talked to anyone in a projection that was so lucid and had a grip over physical memories like this guy did. I laid in bed for a few moments trying to gather the memories together, then I fell asleep for the night."

I've had experiences in LDs where certain people I've talked to seemed extremely out of it (possibly someone having a normal dream) and others seem more lucid than myself. These experiences of mine make me believe the Phase theory could very well be true

[Summerlander]

It's funny that you mention that because my phase experiences strongly suggest the existence of telepathy too, especially when visiting other people. I have also experienced precognition in a normal dream. The event happened to weeks later. Quite recently, Persinger seems to have stumbled upon telepathy too:

http://www.skeptiko.com/michael-persinger-discovers-telepathic-link/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l6VPpDublg (http://www.skeptiko.com/michael-persinger-discovers-telepathic-link/)