Interesting post in the ITLAD forum

[CFTraveler]

http://www.anthonypeake.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1406

Here is an interesting thread in the CTF forum, about mirrors and seeing, which I found mysteriously serendipitous after reading the article CW posted about information in the quantum state.
I have not read the entire thread (it may decline, I'll have to go back and read it) but it is very interesting.

[blis]

So photons dont actually go through clear mediums? That has more implications than just glass. What about air?

That would mean that light doesnt move at all on Earth. Each percieved movement of a photon would actually be the absorbtion and recreation of a new one.

I dont really know about the zero point field thing so I cant comment on what would happen in a vaccum but could it be possible that light doesnt really "move" at all? Is it just a message being passed on?

[CFTraveler]

If you consider that ATM the only 'real' constant is the speed of light, your conclusion (that there is no 'real' movement) seems to fit right in, doesn't it?
If you think about it, light is the only 'thing' in the universe that has no resting mass- and it always is measured equally, even when photons are pointed in opposite directions (apparently breaking relativity rules, which is what caught Einstein's attention)- but if it isn't really moving, just reflected/recreated/ or something :D it makes reality all the more 'weird' or even, shall we say, holographic, doesn't it?
:rolling:

[ButterflyWoman]

So if light doesn't move, how does it form interference or diffraction patterns, as per the famous double-slit experiment?

Curiouser and curiouser....

[blis]

I'm pretty ignorant of science. Could someone explain. Does a sound wave move? Is it an actual thing in itself or is it just the pattern of how things transfer energy to the things next to them?

[CFTraveler]

In theory, all waves need a medium, so they are patterns of energy transfer. Except of course, for light waves, which are the only 'known' waves that don't need a medium to propagate. Or at least, since science doesn't recognize the existence of 'ether' as a medium, like the Greeks used to.
But of course, if you look at space as the medium, (as in, space is something, and not the lack of something) then you have your medium.
Now, it gets more complicated when you consider the inherent properties of light that are different than anything else-mainly the wave/particle duality, the 'no resting mass' thing, and the way the speed doesn't add up or subtract from each other photon when measured- which makes me think that light is completely different than anything else we call 'matter' in the universe- and to comment (because it's not an answer really) on CW's question, I would say that diffraction, interference and all the other good stuff light does happens instantaneously (that is, the particle doesn't really go from A to B) making me think that 'it already was there', we just detected it when we put the slit there, or the prism, etc.
Was it Bohm that postulated that the whole universe was made of one single quantum particle interfering with itself outside of time and space, and what we see is the reflection of it, as viewed inside it? I can't remember now.
ps. Idk if the ITLADian thread I referenced explains or defends those ideas sufficiently- I still haven't read the whole thing.

[blis]

Thanks for explaining.

I'd love to learn about physics but the the gulf between where I left off at school and the interesting quantum stuff just seems like too much work for what I would get out of it.

[CFTraveler]

If you want to get the basics explained in a non-mathematical way (some stuff in it is outdated, because it was written long ago, but it's geared for the spiritual seeker) there is a book called The Dancing Wu Li Masters by Gary Zukav that is very comprehensive, and can open the door to understanding a little more challenging stuff.
I suck at math but love physics, and constantly try to improve my limitations because it is just too fascinating to miss. Nerdy, huh?

[blis]

Thanks. I'll see if I can find it at the library.

[mick]

So photons dont actually go through clear mediums? That has more implications than just glass. What about air?

That would mean that light doesnt move at all on Earth. Each percieved movement of a photon would actually be the absorbtion and recreation of a new one.

I dont really know about the zero point field thing so I cant comment on what would happen in a vaccum but could it be possible that light doesnt really "move" at all? Is it just a message being passed on?

I am no expert but as I understand at a fairly macro level is that Light falls in a narrow band of the electromagnetic spectrum and conveniently the atmosphere is largely transparent to that part of the spectrum and it passes through whereas Infra-red does interact with various molecule groups dependent on wavelength hence the greenhouse effect. The glass discussion there is interesting and highlighted to me how little I really know about this stuff. In glass light will travel through being absorbed by molecules, upping its energy level and being re-radiated generally at the same wavelength but some will convect/conduct and warm the glass that way. So light passing through glass will marginally be at less than the speed of light due to absorption and re-radiation being repeated until it exits.
The discussion at that site regarding mirrors got to me because generally when a photon is absorbed and re-radiated it can do so in any direction in such mediums as the atmosphere so what is it about a mirror said to be due to its high smoothness reflect not only much of the light back but also at the same corresponding angle described at the link below. In a macro context it seems obvious but at the molecule level something specific is happening. The article mentions that metal reflective materials are high in electron counts per atom so has a role but am wondering the angle bit. Oh dear, something else to bug me... :)
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/refln/u13l1c.cfm

This fragment explains some of the why:
"Reflection and transmission of light waves occur because the frequencies of the light waves do not match the natural frequencies of vibration of the objects. When light waves of these frequencies strike an object, the electrons in the atoms of the object begin vibrating. But instead of vibrating in resonance at a large amplitude, the electrons vibrate for brief periods of time with small amplitudes of vibration; then the energy is reemitted as a light wave. If the object is transparent, then the vibrations of the electrons are passed on to neighboring atoms through the bulk of the material and reemitted on the opposite side of the object. Such frequencies of light waves are said to be transmitted. If the object is opaque, then the vibrations of the electrons are not passed from atom to atom through the bulk of the material. Rather the electrons of atoms on the material's surface vibrate for short periods of time and then reemit the energy as a reflected light wave. Such frequencies of light are said to be reflected."

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/light/u12l2c.cfm


I'm pretty ignorant of science. Could someone explain. Does a sound wave move? Is it an actual thing in itself or is it just the pattern of how things transfer energy to the things next to them?

Sound operates at a molecular level rather than sub-molecule level and something like a loudspeaker pushes and pulls air molecules which then transfer their kinetic energy into those molecules they hit somewhat like the desk toy pendulum balls do.

The ITLAD site is interesting, some more reading. Sigh. :)

[mick]

Thanks. I'll see if I can find it at the library.

Copy available here. http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/archivos_pdf/dancing_wulimasters.pdf

[eyeoneblack]

I don't know CF, I like that site (even signed up sometime ago) but this business of a photon NOT being reflected but instead being regenerated by a mirror is doubtful to me.

I think if we asked a particle physicist about the qualities of a say, a silver atom, he probably would not say that it is reflective whereas other elements aren't. That is, there is nothing unique about a silver atom at the micro level that says mirrors should be made of it. The argument that the photon excites an electron which then releases another photon applies to all elements, I suppose.

It is only on the macro level, billions of atoms taken together, that the reflective quality manifests. This makes it a Classical or Newtonian problem which describes light being REFLECTED accurately.

Besides, there are a number of experiments done by particle physicists that rely on mirrors to reflect or change the course of a single photon. I can cite some of these if you're interested.

Richard

[eyeoneblack]

On further thought (and this is a puzzle) I think, considering light and mirrors, it's probably a case of light as a waveform rather than a particle. Light might not take on the properties of particles until it is measured, which would occur when the waveform encountered the retina.

I've never read anything specifically about this little problem. :)