Good Book and Question

[Atraveler]

I'm reading "The Head Trip" by Jeff Warren, an Australian. He mentions that it's Stephen LaBerge's opinion that OBEs are not paranormal and that they're just another variant of lucid dream. How do we know that OBE is paranormal and not just a lucid dream?

I was into OBE for a long time and considered deeply the possibility that it's paranormal and different from LD, but now I'm not sure I'm convinced. The adage "you can't prove it's not paranormal" doesn't satisfy. I don't know if Dr. Sam Parnia has gotten any good results yet.

This doesn't mean LD isn't fun or useful, but it kind of takes away some of my hope in an afterlife.

[CFTraveler]

First of all, I hate the word 'paranormal'.
Just because scientists with a 19th century paradigm don't believe information can be gathered nonlocally (when Quantum physicists have shown that it's theoretically possible) doesn't mean that the ability to gather information nonlocally by a human being isn't 'normal'. But I digress.
Stephen La Berge is a great scientist, and has done so much for the study of dreaming and legitimized the idea that we can have lucid dreaming, something that most psychologists wouldn't even admit was possible not that long ago- but IMO it's not necessary to 'prove' that the information gathered came from anywhere other than the brain. However, other scientists, such as Tart and Campbell have done so much experimentation that show that results are didin't come from from 'good guessing' or the law of probabilities, but to tell you the truth, only when you have the experienced a projection that has been validated you will realize that even though it may be 'all' in your mind, your mind got the information some other way than seeing, hearing, or feeling. Only experience will convince, and sometimes that isn't enough.
As to 'hope on an afterlife', that is another ball of wax- NDE studies are much more useful than OBE data (IMO) when it comes to that, although some of us have had OBEs that make us lean more towards the idea that there is an afterlife.
So really, other than keep practicing and keeping a diary, I can't tell you anything to make you feel better.

[Atraveler]

CFTraveler,

Thanks so much for your honest reply. I do still think I have hope! I remember corresponding with you a few years ago and I appreciate your helpfulness and knowledge. I greatly appreciate your answer and hope to read more of your posts.

Cheers!
Atraveler

[ButterflyWoman]

Wow, it's hard to follow CFT's most excellent answer, so I'll answer just from personal reflection. ;)

I don't see why it matters. Seriously. Perhaps OBE, or at least some OBE experiences, are an extension of lucid dreaming. So what? I honestly cannot see how or why it matters, or what difference it would make if some sort of "proof" were available to show one thing or another. I can understand scientists and researchers who want to figure out what's going on, etc., but that's their gig. There's no reason it has to affect anyone else's experience of reality. You can interpret your own reality in your own way, full stop.

Living, BEING, is about what is experienced. Putting labels and limitations and guidelines on our experiences (especially the highly symbolic and deeply personal and esoteric ones) really doesn't serve any purpose as far as experience goes.

In my personal experience, a great deal of life, both waking and sleeping, is profoundly symbolic, and things are never literal, anyway, so to me, the whole idea of separating "spiritual" from "not spiritual" or "paranormal" from "normal" (and we may as well throw in "sub-normal", too, while we're at it!) is just a lot of blah blah blah based around certain kinds of dogma.

As for some sort of proof of an afterlife, sorry, can't help you. I have no idea. And - this is a pretty big point - neither does anyone else, no matter what they claim. Individual people have their own experiences which they may well interpret as indicating an afterlife (or, indeed, as indicating that there is NOT an afterlife), but this kind of thing is so personal and so unique to the experiencer that it's impossible to quantify it in broader terms, or apply it in a universal way. You can listen to people's interpretations of their own experiences, sure, but that's about as far as it goes.

The key with the whole "fear of death" issue (and it is that, even if it's framed as desire for an afterlife) is to get rid of the fear of there being nothing, as well as the fear or concern of there being something (maybe something you won't like, or which you won't measure up to, etc.). Whatever it is, is, and you may as well just stop being afraid of it and let it go. (This is far more easily said than done, but intending to get rid of "the ultimate fear" is a worthy pursuit; fear of death shows up in pernicious ways in all areas of life, like bad weed).

[Alienor]

For a scientist this sure can be difficult, as what I noticed is, that some people who talk/write about OBEs; and also some of them who have written books about OBEs, mostly had Lucid dreams. Our dream environment can be very complex :) So, if then a scientist looks at those, then he rightly would state, those OBEs are lucid dreams.

As for the afterlife: There are animals, that can see spirits and "ghosts". The animals can sometimes be scared or at least bothered. When you help then those ghosts to go into the light, the animals show clearly the difference. So without having changed anything else (only closed my eyes for a minute going OBE), from one moment to the other the animal's behavior changes - that is for me prove enough, that an actual change did take place.
So there is an afterlife. Lucid dreams are already a very good practice. Also LD are a safe practicing area.

[Eris]

First of all, I hate the word 'paranormal'.
As to 'hope on an afterlife', that is another ball of wax- NDE studies are much more useful than OBE data (IMO) when it comes to that, although some of us have had OBEs that make us lean more towards the idea that there is an afterlife.


Are Near Death Experiences not just OBEs that occur due to severe trauma? I was reading Monroe's "Far Journeys" the other day, and he reported that some of the volunteers in his early studies with binaural beats saw and were drawn into a "tunnel of light" that is strikingly familiar to what is described in many NDEs.

For those living in the U.S. who are interested in NDEs, there's a show on the Biography Channel called "I Survived, Beyond and Back", which consists entirely of firsthand accounts of these sorts of experiences.

[CFTraveler]

They may be the same from a perceptual (experiential) point of view, but because of the biological component to the event (that is, the measured brain-death aspect of it) it has more documentation backing it up from a scientific point of view, and IIRC more data.
For example, I can tell you all of the things I've done and seen when I OBE to an afterlife zone, but you might be more persuaded to give it more credence if it happened in a hospital where my heart stopped, I went brain-dead for a time, and it was all documented by professionals, came back and described what the doctors were doing at the time I was brain-dead-lights-out.
That's what I meant- more data, more documentation in a verifiable form of what happens when you die.

Of course, a diehard materialist will still not be swayed, but I'm talking about objective skepticism, not scientism/materialism.

[Sinera]

Are Near Death Experiences not just OBEs that occur due to severe trauma?
OBE is just one element. The tunnel of light, the loving guides and entities, the bliss and happiness, the all-knowing/knowlege and insights, the barrier (of no return), beautiful landscapes (summerland), the meeting with deceased (mostly) relatives and many more elements are a pattern that is mentioned (in different combinations) by most NDErs.

Of course, the OBE part it is the one that serves mostly for validations (but not the only one, e.g. there's meeting deceased people and being able to check on what they told you later and find out it is true, or seeing future events that then came true).

For me, lucid dreams and (lucid) out-of-body experiences are more or less the same. Lucid dreams (as well as "normal" dreams) are also not less real than OBE or even this physical reality we are in. Not anymore. :shock:

(Btw, validations by "normal" OBEs / LDs (instead of NDEs) are also possible, see my signature, the second link).

[Sinera]

OBE is just one element. The tunnel of light, the loving guides and entities, the bliss and happiness, the all-knowing/knowlege and insights, the barrier (of no return), beautiful landscapes (summerland), the meeting with deceased (mostly) relatives and many more elements are a pattern that is mentioned (in different combinations) by most NDErs.
Darn ... now I really forgot the most important ... The Clown ....

http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?videoId=271286&title=space-near-death-experience

:banghead:

[CFTraveler]

Oh No The Clown! ARrrrghhh! :jawdrop: :lol2: