proposed solution to grandfather paradox

[wstein]

You know the old grandfather paradox: It goes something like invent a time machine and travel to your past. While there you kill your grandfather which should prevent you from being born. But how can you do anything if you were never born??

I suggest that you can travel into the past and kill your grandfather without any paradox. The resolution is to realize that whatever effect you cause travels 'forward' in time at the same rate you do. Its just like your actions now that travel into an unset future at a 'fixed' speed. In a sense your past disappears but never catches up with you.

Ever heard of parallel lives? Perhaps when traveling in time, you are really "seeing" into another dimension. A dimension (life) in which your grandfather was killed and you were never born. Since your intent was to kill your grandfather to see what would happen to you, maybe you are instead just "tuning in" to the dimension in which he was killed by someone else. Because of your intent, possibly you are seeing the murderer as yourself, when it is actually someone else. I'm starting to sound rather bizarre! Just a theory which can't be proved on this level of existence.

[jalef]

i like the timeline theory: if you travel back in time you can kill your grandfather but this will only create a new timeline and the one you came from will be absolutely unafacted.

[enoch]

If I remember rightly, the only way to solve the paradox is the multiverse theory. Or is it a hypotheses? I can't remember. Personally, I doubt that time travel would ever be possible. Imagine reversing entropy: reversing the environment would also reverse you! meaning: if you did successfully reverse entropy and arrive at an earlier date, you'd have no idea why you were there because all memory would have been erased.

Wasn't there a movie like this? I can't remember the name. The guy had to keep writing messages on his arms and body to remember, because, I think, he was experiencing time backwards? Anyway, it was an interesting movie if anyone can remember the title.

[CFTraveler]

I think it was a star trek episode.

My daughter-in-law just told me the movie was "The Butterfly Effect".

[enoch]

still not seen that movie...keep meaning to...

[Freawaru]

There are some really good movies on the subject. Some of my favs are "Bill and Ted" (they are the only ones who ever really USED the effects) and some "Stargate" episodes. Of course "Back to the Future" is also highly amusing. :-D

As to science, there are solutions of the Relativity Theory that permit time travel - just as Warp speed and stable Worm holes. Problem is that they would require so-called "Inflationary matter" and noone has an idea how to created that one... so far ;-)

[CFTraveler]

If I remember rightly, the only way to solve the paradox is the multiverse theory. Or is it a hypotheses? I can't remember. Personally, I doubt that time travel would ever be possible. Imagine reversing entropy: reversing the environment would also reverse you! meaning: if you did successfully reverse entropy and arrive at an earlier date, you'd have no idea why you were there because all memory would have been erased. Maybe this happens all the time already and no one remembers.

[Gelal]

:idea:

[Scorpyn]

If I remember rightly, the only way to solve the paradox is the multiverse theory. Or is it a hypotheses? I can't remember. Personally, I doubt that time travel would ever be possible. Imagine reversing entropy: reversing the environment would also reverse you! meaning: if you did successfully reverse entropy and arrive at an earlier date, you'd have no idea why you were there because all memory would have been erased. Maybe this happens all the time already and no one remembers.
Sometimes something I've known for a 100% fact is suddenly changed, and everybody around me seems to know that I was wrong all the time.

I'm not sure whether this is because of an error in my memory or because I don't stay "tuned" into the same "reality" for lack of a proper wording.


Problem is that they would require so-called "Inflationary matter" and noone has an idea how to created that one... so far ;-)
By that, you mean matter with a negative gravity, right? Funny, I was considering ways of going backwards in time this morning, and that's the exact method I came up with (although I'm still not sure whether it'd actually be possible to go backwards rather than just stop time). Seems like my theory about time might be correct.

It might be possible to do something about it with a bunch of magnets...


(This reply was a bit late... sorry about that)

[CFTraveler]

Scorpyn wrote:
Sometimes something I've known for a 100% fact is suddenly changed, and everybody around me seems to know that I was wrong all the time.

I'm not sure whether this is because of an error in my memory or because I don't stay "tuned" into the same "reality" for lack of a proper wording. This happens to me all the time, which is why I said that.

In fact, I still say the original commercial says: "Give it to Mikey, he'll eat anything."

[Scorpyn]

Scorpyn wrote:
Sometimes something I've known for a 100% fact is suddenly changed, and everybody around me seems to know that I was wrong all the time.

I'm not sure whether this is because of an error in my memory or because I don't stay "tuned" into the same "reality" for lack of a proper wording. This happens to me all the time, which is why I said that.

In fact, I still say the original commercial says: "Give it to Mikey, he'll eat anything."
I don't know what commercial you are referring to (we probably live in different countries), but the change I remember the best (actually the only one right now) is that the definition of hard/soft vowels was switched all of a sudden (I'm not sure if other countries put the vowels into 2 groups or not so this might not make any sense to you).

[jalef]

yes this sometimes happens to me to but i considered it as an error of my memeory, but maybe theres really more to it...

[wstein]

Scorpyn wrote:
Sometimes something I've known for a 100% fact is suddenly changed, and everybody around me seems to know that I was wrong all the time.

I'm not sure whether this is because of an error in my memory or because I don't stay "tuned" into the same "reality" for lack of a proper wording. This happens to me all the time, which is why I said that.

In fact, I still say the original commercial says: "Give it to Mikey, he'll eat anything."

This happens all the time. I notice them several times a year. Best I can tell, there are changes in your neighborhood many times an hour (possibly more).

From my understanding, you are allowed to change the universe in any way you see fit provided you don't affect anything or any one. I know its a little tricky but possible, I've done it. One of the tricks is to change things since the beginning of time. This way there are not 'changes' you are just rearranging the way thing have always been. The problem is that the system has some problems. The principle one is that any one else doing this or any time based magic at the same time do not get 'updated'. The change still occurs but they continue to remember the 'old' universe. Note that the changer always remembers the old universe. Clearly subtle changes are easier to get away with than major ones.

The one trick I can do repeatedly is to make slow traffic in front of me turn at the next reasonable place. This is done by moving where their destination is such that is has always required them to turn at the next intersection. Naturally when they get to their exit, they turn (which is conveniently just up ahead). There is a flaw. Some people are just driving and have no destination per se (does not work on them). I managed to teach someone else to do this, but in their version the person pulled off the road for moment (allowing them by).

[CFTraveler]

So technically I did the Mikey thing? If I did it- can I undo it? I think I'm going to test this.

[Scorpyn]

any one else doing this or any time based magic at the same time do not get 'updated'. The change still occurs but they continue to remember the 'old' universe. Note that the changer always remembers the old universe.
So, in my case, someone might have switched the definition of soft/hard vowels in order to get better scores on a test or something?

Is it enough to have the ability to change things to notice when things are changed by someone else, or do you have to actively change something at the same time?

I don't understand the "don't affect a thing or anyone" part of what you wrote. Do you mean that it's possible to make changes, but not really major ones? Or the possibility of making changes, but none that change the history?

[Freawaru]

Problem is that they would require so-called "Inflationary matter" and noone has an idea how to created that one... so far ;-)
By that, you mean matter with a negative gravity, right? Funny, I was considering ways of going backwards in time this morning, and that's the exact method I came up with (although I'm still not sure whether it'd actually be possible to go backwards rather than just stop time). Seems like my theory about time might be correct.

It might be possible to do something about it with a bunch of magnets...


(This reply was a bit late... sorry about that)

In case you are interested the original paper by Alcubierre is

Alcubierred. M. (1994), "The Warp Drive: Hyper-Fast Travel within General Relativity", Classical Quantum Gravity 11, pp. L. 73 - L.77

http://members.shaw.ca/mike.anderton/WarpDrive.pdf

[Freawaru]

Some more interesting sites

http://www.physics.hku.hk/~tboyce/sf/to ... mhole.html (http://www.physics.hku.hk/~tboyce/sf/topics/wormhole/wormhole.html)


http://65.108.189.168/Docs/The_Positive ... _Drive.pdf (http://65.108.189.168/Docs/The_Positive_Energy_Spation_Warp_Drive.pdf)

http://www.chronos.msu.ru/EREPORTS/lobo_time.pdf

[wstein]

any one else doing this or any time based magic at the same time do not get 'updated'. The change still occurs but they continue to remember the 'old' universe. Note that the changer always remembers the old universe.
So, in my case, someone might have switched the definition of soft/hard vowels in order to get better scores on a test or something?

Not that easy to say why they changed it.

Is it enough to have the ability to change things to notice when things are changed by someone else, or do you have to actively change something at the same time?

Best I can tell, you have to be changing something at the same time. Its hard to be certain how many events you are not aware of.


I don't understand the "don't affect a thing or anyone" part of what you wrote. Do you mean that it's possible to make changes, but not really major ones? Or the possibility of making changes, but none that change the history?
In short, you can have things be different as long as there aren't any inconsistent changes.

Let me explain it another way. The universe has a fair amount of permanence and persistence because many are actively and passively maintaining it that way. There are 'rules' that dictate how changes are permitted (i.e. the laws of nature). In this manner the universe behaves in a (mostly) consistent and predictable way. Really we are all powerful creative beings that are capable of making major changes to the universe. So in order to have a place with some reasonable continuity, we all follow a self imposed mutually enforced agreement to make it that way. If you want to change things, you are supposed to do it via the rules. If you try to change something in another way, there is resistance by others (equally powerful as you). Since its many against one, you are basically out voted.

The system is not totally foolproof. As those who practice magic know, it is possible to get away with minor changes on occasions. Bigger changes are normally noticed and blocked by the collective. Notice that the goal is a certain stability and predictability. There is no prohibition against things being different, only that things don't arbitrarily change (in the middle). So if you can figure out how to make things different without any violations of the laws of nature along the way, you probably can have the universe as you want it.

Note that making things different in a way that someone else does not like is also likely to meet resistance. There is no rule about how much you make different per se. Its more difficult to fit in a major rework as there is more potential to affect someone who does not approve of what you want. So with so much history and so many players its really hard to meet all the constraints.

[Scorpyn]

wstein : Good explanation, I think I understood it properly :D


http://members.shaw.ca/mike.anderton/WarpDrive.pdf
I haven't read the other stuff yet, but I skimmed that one through and it seems like it's the same idea that I had, which is basically using the idea of near light speeds but sort of in reverse.

It's not time travel really, but merely freezing time around yourself. Quite interesting really, if you combine it with chryosleep or something similar it could be used for example if you need to keep a long distance supply route going (or you could send robots instead of using chryosleep). It would also be a rather interesting way of doing intergalactic trade routes, and it could probably be used to do a bunch of research in order to for example stop a disease almost instantly.

However, I'm not really sure that it's physically possible - I'm not sure what you'd find if you actually succeeded, but I believe that you would approach temperatures rather close to 0 Kelvin (at least to the outside observer).

I'll try to post my theory about time tomorrow. Just don't expect it to be correct :P

[Freawaru]

Oh, I think it is time travel all right. To go forward in time is actually possible without any fuss, just use a near-light ship. The trick is to go backwards - from the point of an outside observer.

I thought it really fascinating that General Relativity Theory does permit these things.

Did you know, particles do move backwards in time all the, erm, time. The Feynman diagrams used to calculate the probability that a particle ends up somewhere have to include possibilities where particles go back in time. Otherwise you get a lot of nonsense.

There was actually this speculation that there is really just *one* electron, but cause it moves back and forward in time it appears that there are be plenty of them - all intercating with each other (or with itself, depending on the perspecive) ;-)

Physics is a lot of fun :-D

[Scorpyn]

I believe that there are 1 or 2 ways of going back in time : Either going faster than lightspeed or lowering the speed of your particles to below 0 Kelvin. Both ways might work.

You will probably not make it out on the other side as a regular physical being.

[Dais]

I wanted to step in and say something about pardox and time shifts frist off no one can and never will be able to change time. Maybe we can go to the future but not the past. that and paradox is a all powerful force of reality. Like in the book time machine pardox would not allow him to go back and change anything no matter how many ways he tired to save his girl she would just die another way.
As far as going back changing something and the past just not chacthing up that sounds like some dragon ball crap Like when trunks went back to the past and killed the androids before they destroyed the wourld, when he went back to the future nothing had changed in his future but when he went back to the past a seconed time everything was good in the way he had changed it to be but his future never changed even though he changed it for others in the past.
Time travel as a hole is a crock of sh.. just accept the wourld we cant change the past we can influence the future but not the past.

PS I have never read seen or studied anything in time travel that didnt end in a loop or broken paradox scientific or other wise.

[rb_bni_22]

Hey,i have a theory too(involving parallel universes) that solves the grand-father paradox......i'm also working on a theory that includes the planes of existence,parallel universes,the holographic universe and consciousness....take a look at this in my 360 blog.....uhh i don't know what the link is though,cuz it doesn't give me any URL that is specific to my page.....just look for jason's insane world.

[rb_bni_22]

Hey,i have a theory too(involving parallel universes) that solves the grand-father paradox......i'm also working on a theory that includes the planes of existence,parallel universes,the holographic universe and consciousness....take a look at this in my 360 blog.....uhh i don't know what the link is though,cuz it doesn't give me any URL that is specific to my page.....just look for jason's insane world.


I don't know at what standard you guys are but my theories may be a little "simple".......

[rb_bni_22]

Got it........here's the link to my blog........http://360.yahoo.com/jason.x_2004

[wstein]

There would seem to be several ways to combine these theory. The problem is that it is not easy to sort out the 'best one'.

Firstly, Astral travel could be travel to a different part of this 'universe', a parallel universe that diverged from ours a long time ago, another pane/dimension, or be could be a shift in consciousness/awareness (but not leaving this universe at all).

Neither the multiverse theory or holographic theories deal with nor preclude travel to what appears to be the 'past'. Whether we travel to our same past, or a parallel past, the experience is the same.

The holographic theory does not imply DESTINY. Even if the past and future 'are' it does not indicate how they came to be that way. It is unclear if the totality unfolded like clockwork or by a series of free choices. Its even possible that it all exists at the same time and yet still changes.

I admire your attempt to combine these theories. I hope some of the posts in this forum help you sort it out.

[rb_bni_22]

There would seem to be several ways to combine these theory. The problem is that it is not easy to sort out the 'best one'.

Firstly, Astral travel could be travel to a different part of this 'universe', a parallel universe that diverged from ours a long time ago, another pane/dimension, or be could be a shift in consciousness/awareness (but not leaving this universe at all).

Neither the multiverse theory or holographic theories deal with nor preclude travel to what appears to be the 'past'. Whether we travel to our same past, or a parallel past, the experience is the same.

The holographic theory does not imply DESTINY. Even if the past and future 'are' it does not indicate how they came to be that way. It is unclear if the totality unfolded like clockwork or by a series of free choices. Its even possible that it all exists at the same time and yet still changes.

I admire your attempt to combine these theories. I hope some of the posts in this forum help you sort it out.


1)Astral could be as you say travel to a different dimension/universe........but according to the parallel universes theory all the universes have to be vibrating at the same frequency(same energy level)..so i doubt that.I think it is a sift in consciousness/awareness.

2)Not neccessarily....as parallel universes are basically probable universes that arise due to conscious action each one would be different in a very
small way(if all of them were the same they would simply merge together)
So travel to the past or future will in 99.99999% of cases will lead to travel to different parallel universes(mathematical probability....actually there are a lot more nines).However i agree that the holographic theory in no way deals with time travel in any way......

3)When i say DESTINY i mean a certain order or a set way in which things/events will go.I don't mean destiny in the sense that...this is what i'm here to do or this is my destiny....i mean destiny on a much broader scale - because in the holographic theory all instants in time exist simultaneously and hence the past future and present are already known(otherwise the instants would not exist).........

Take a look at my 360 blog,please......i put some work into it......http://360.yahoo.com/jason.x_2004

[landru27]

From my understanding, you are allowed to change the universe in any way you see fit provided you don't affect anything or any one.


The one trick I can do repeatedly is to make slow traffic in front of me turn at the next reasonable place. This is done by moving where their destination is such that is has always required them to turn at the next intersection.

How could it be that changing the location of a person's destination does not "affect anything or any one."?

For example, if the person driving slowly is on his or her way to a job interview, and you change the location at which that business was established, you have just changed countless other car rides for all the people who ever have or ever will drive to that same business, e.g., the people who work there, deliveries, visitors, etc.

Quite possibly, you will affect who works there, because people consider driving distance as a factor in selecting a job.

Quite likely, you will cause other people who drive to that same destination every day to have slow drives on days that they (prior to the change) had a normal drive, since they will encounter totally different day-to-day traffic conditions now that they drive to a totally new place.

... Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by "This is done by moving where their destination is"?

[wstein]

Well that's the trick (and limitation) to it.

This gets into the finer definition of 'change' and 'affect'. Simple difference does not constitute either on its own.

One loophole in change is that it requires a 'before' to compare with. So one of the work-arounds is to change things all the way back to the beginning of time. Then there is no before and therefore no 'change'. Breaks in consistency (in the middle) of history are not allowed.

Best I can tell is that changes in quality of the experience of being incarnate is what really is at issue. This quality is however from the view of the spirit (or higher self), not the incarnate form. Tiny changes like moving a few blades of grass likely do not affect anyone's quality of experience and so are not so hard to accomplish. But of course they don't affect your quality of experience either (then why bother). There's a lot of detail stuff that no one really cares about. Mostly people are fine with whatever as long as there is consistency and they don't know any different.

If you are thinking about changing a person's work location in the sense that yesterday it was on 1st street and today its on 2nd street, then you are correct, that affects things. People remember work being in one place only to arrive and its not there. Consider however if the work location has been the same every time they traveled there. If work suddenly has always been on 2nd street and never on 1st street, then everyone arrives to see things as they remember and expect. Then what has changed? Yes your point is correct that if you 'move' a work location 'too' far (as defined by the workers) then that is a change too. Clearly, less visited places are easier to relocate.

I admit, its very difficult to find another arrangement of reality that is 'equivalent' in all the ways that matter to others yet still advantageous to yourself.

Perhaps I was a little sloppy in describing this. Try: From what I understand, you can change whatever you want as long as you don't make any changes.

[oath]

Didnt this all stem from the time when people still considered time to be linear?

[wstein]

Probably.

More generally its premised on the idea that our choice of actions here (in space-time) is some how limited (likely by mutual agreement) by what are loosely referred to as the 'laws of nature'.

This stems from the experience that things are not observed to arbitrarily rearrange themselves. There is no way to be sure that this is not just an observational problem.

[oath]

Okay so let me get this straight, each dimension contains not only itself, but the properties of the dimensions before it, known and unknown (string theory xtra dimensions) and so time, being the 4th dimension, would be traveling in multiple directions at any one time, and therfore not linear or continuall in a succession of events, but more like a swirling and even colliding mass of matter-energy that may be so chaotic as to appear on several or first glance instances to be something other than it is. Furthermore, the theory in question seems to be such a contradiction and perhaps an example of two different time periods colliding for dominance and existance?