Difficult Spiritual Awakenings, Perceptions, Related Topics

[heliac]

Split from: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8911&st=0&sk=t&sd=a (http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8911&st=0&sk=t&sd=a)

I don't really know all that much about kundalini so i shouldn't really even comment on things like the consequences of it but i will. i just can't help but feel instinctively that if it is approached in a sound and down to earth way that a lot of the consequences are minimized.

It just seems like sometimes people who talk about their kundalini describe it almost like a brutal hazing and that they are proud to have endured so that they can now have a nice big ultimate spiritual merit badge.Does being able to endure psychosis really need to be an intrinsic value in anyone attempting to raise kundalini?

[Tutor]

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[ButterflyWoman]

i just can't help but feel instinctively that if it is approached in a sound and down to earth way that a lot of the consequences are minimized.
Quite possibly. But it is still, pardon the metaphor, playing with fire.

Also, I don't sense that you're interpreting instinctively, but rather, reactively.


It just seems like sometimes people who talk about their kundalini describe it almost like a brutal hazing and that they are proud to have endured so that they can now have a nice big ultimate spiritual merit badge.
Some people might, but quite possibly (and even probably, at least in some of your assessments and statements) you're projecting your own stuff onto what people say.

[heliac]

Also, I don't sense that you're interpreting instinctively, but rather, reactively.

I'm not too sure what you mean by interpreting reactively vs instinctively.Gut feelings are reactions no? An unconscious reflexive sensing/feeling reaction.I don't really know anything about kundalini from experience so when i am interpreting statements made by others about the phenomenon and comparing there statements with how i feel when i read them i can report, for what it is worth :? , that i feel like the formidable symptoms and consequenses that come with raising kundalini could be cut down if it is approached in a way that is down to earth.I guess this could possibly be projecting as well although a form of naive optimistic projection?But when i mull this idea over, it feels right to me, in my gut. There is only one way to find out for sure though right!! :)

I appreciate your feedback on this, you are getting the wheels churning :)



Some people might, but quite possibly (and even probably, at least in some of your assessments and statements) you're projecting your own stuff onto what people say.

I could be projecting, even if i were, it is still quite possibly true that some people who claim to have experienced kundalini describe the events as a hazing into the spiritually elite. Whether spiritual elitism is something that should be condoned or encouraged or left alone or something else i am not thinking of would be an interesting discussion as well. I definitely see what you mean about the projecting, as spiritual elitism just rubs me the wrong way and i am almost definitely reading that into others experiences in some cases. This also might stem from a lack in actual experience.

Freud's ideas of projection would be another nice discussion:) I would very much like to see what other statements and assessments you have interpreted of mine as projections.

[heliac]

Hi Tim,

I think i only got about 1/8th of what you said up here :D I think you are saying in here somewhere that one does not need the ability to endure psychosis as a pre-requisite to the kundalini experience.That is very nice to hear.Would you say that major consequences, like the ones that would be discouraging, are a result of the practitioner doing something wrong in the process of deliberate awakening?Or is suffering just a part of the kundalini experience and there is nothing we can do about it and if you haven't suffered during your kundalini raising you have not really awakened it.

I like the comparison you've made with climbing mount everest, and getting "summit fever", that makes a lot of sense.

[ButterflyWoman]

I could be projecting, even if i were [...]
If you are, even a little, you need to examine that. WHY are you bothered by what you perceive to be some sort of bragging? What about that bugs you? Why do you think someone being glad to have survived an ordeal is wrong? Etcetera.


it is still quite possibly true that some people who claim to have experienced kundalini describe the events as a hazing into the spiritually elite.
I said it was possible. However, I think the term "spiritually elite" is something you have in your own psyche, hence the notion that this is something that could bear exploring. Where is that coming from, and why?


Whether spiritual elitism is something that should be condoned or encouraged or left alone or something else i am not thinking of would be an interesting discussion as well.
Okay. I split this topic to its own discussion thread. :)

But I can tell you for sure, I don't feel "elite", spiritually or otherwise. I don't think Robert Bruce does, either (I've certainly never picked up on any such thing from him, in public or private conversation).

This whole idea of "spiritual elitism" is incorrectly placed. It's actually "egotistical elitism" that you're talking about. Only the ego would get all worked up about some "spiritual achievement" or whatever. I see it all the time, and it just makes me roll my eyes, because it's so blatantly ego-being-ego.

And, frankly, I suspect that in a lot of cases, it's not that the person talking about having a difficult Kundalini awakening or other spiritual emergency, so much as the listener's own ego interpreting their own stuff (subconscious fears of inferiority, etc.).

[EDITED TO ADD] I went out and had a life for a few hours (lunch, movie, grocery shopping, etc) and was thinking about this topic some more, because it kind of intrigues me.

Suppose instead of having a "spiritual" framework around it, the process was described in terms of materialism, i.e., let's say we framed it as "mental illness". In fact, I did frame my experience that way for a long time, because I just didn't have any other way to look at it (only in retrospect can I see that it was a transformation and awakening process, and only after that did I attach the term "Kundalini" to it). My framework was of recovering from an abusive childhood. My framework was that of a complete mental and emotional breakdown, for the purpose of healing.

If someone relates their story of having a breakdown, ending up in the psych ward, having to undergo years of soul searching and some degree of therapy, of getting to the point that they saw and felt that they didn't really exist at all (while those around them try to convince them they're wrong), and of slowly rebuilding their sense of self, identity, and mental and emotional health, would that be boasting? Would it be "mental health elitism"? No? Yes? If not, why not? If yes, why? What makes it different to put a different frame around it? What does the context switch do to the narrative to possibly make it something else?

That's what I meant by projection. It's about your own framework, your own way of looking at things. There's nothing inherently right or wrong about any particular bias, nothing good or evil, but being aware of one's own biases and filters when you can is very helpful in releasing attachments and allowing yourself a broader view of life, the universe, and everything.

You can call that "spiritual" if you want to, of course, but that, like everything else, is just a label, just context...

[Tutor]

Hi Tim,

I think i only got about 1/8th of what you said up here :D I think you are saying in here somewhere that one does not need the ability to endure psychosis as a pre-requisite to the kundalini experience.That is very nice to hear.Would you say that major consequences, like the ones that would be discouraging, are a result of the practitioner doing something wrong in the process of deliberate awakening?Or is suffering just a part of the kundalini experience and there is nothing we can do about it and if you haven't suffered during your kundalini raising you have not really awakened it.

I like the comparison you've made with climbing mount everest, and getting "summit fever", that makes a lot of sense.

Hi heliac,

truly, i do not know. each as an individual experiences as they uniquely 'do', the human gamut of being. as far as being really awakened goes, why does one have to experience kundalini period to be awakened? i dont see that as an apparent sequential requirement. could be that one has already had the experience in a prior lifetime, or perhaps prior is merely parallel life. oddly we talk of prior "past lives", but toward the future we see death and speak of "afterlife". these are two very different views. from this present life it seems safe to wistfully assume a mysterious "past" beyond this life, because our entrance was birth, and not death. looking forward we see death, the end of this present person who is postulating the speculatory.

tim

[psionickx]

if you haven't suffered during your kundalini raising you have not really awakened it.

A large faction of people are K-awakened and reached such a state with no emotional/physical/psychological suffering or discomfort.

[heliac]

Hey CW,

Yes that sounds right i think i am talking more about spiritual vanity or egotistical elitism that is probably a better way to put it.

I was not referring to you about being kundalini elite. I don't remember reading anything in particular about your kundalini experience specifically. I definitely was not referring to RObert either. After chatting with Robert a little bit here and there online, one of the main reasons why i am attracted to robert's teachings is he is the opposite of elitism, he seems like he is "one of the guys". Although, one of the guys that is incredibly knowledgeable and respectable and he always seems to know exactlly what to say in terms of practical advise.

I'm sorry to hear about your abusive childhood, but it is wonderful to hear about your healing from the abuse and i think it is great how open you are about it. Most people would shy away from the topic.

I would imagine the context of the description of the kundalini experience could be interpreted very differently depending on who you are talking to.

Do you think that a rough kundalini experience has conditions. A rough experience could be related to past trauma, perhaps in the case of spontaneous awakenings. A rough experience could also be related to going about the process wrong in deliberate awakenings.

If the process of awakening is gone about in the right way and if you just so happen to be lucky enough to not have any major past trauma do you think the chances of having a rough experience are minimized.

[heliac]

if you haven't suffered during your kundalini raising you have not really awakened it.

A large faction of people are K-awakened and reached such a state with no emotional/physical/psychological suffering or discomfort.

Hi psionickx,

In these cases, is it known why people included in this faction reached k-awakened with no or minimal emotional/psychological suffering or discomfort?

[Palehorse Redivivus]

It just seems like sometimes people who talk about their kundalini describe it almost like a brutal hazing and that they are proud to have endured so that they can now have a nice big ultimate spiritual merit badge.Does being able to endure psychosis really need to be an intrinsic value in anyone attempting to raise kundalini?

In a word: no.

I've had some bizarre experiences while working with mine (I don't even call it K; I prefer something like "serpent power" if anything) -- long story short, I defined my own experience and mostly had it as I planned; did a lot of work beforehand to detach from the religious baggage that has made something completely grandiose out of it. Unfortunately I didn't go far enough with this apparently -- I had my raising experience, but separately I also actually had religious thoughtforms, entities and such showing up off and on attempting to do things like crack my crown center. This led to a running inside joke -- "oh, they're back to play another round of 'blame the snake' again..." :roll: Throughout, the sense that someone thought I was intruding upon their territory was very prevalent. Obviously this is nonsense; to deal with one's own serpent is to work with a part of one's own anatomy, and there is nobody on earth who has the authority to intrude on that process or define one's own personal experience. The fact remains that there are a few groups on earth who seem to believe they own the damn thing, and have a definite vested interest in keeping the process artificially traumatic, thereby validating their ideology and keeping themselves in business.

Thus for any westerners who plan on opening up this set of capabilities I would say that inner preparation is important, but doing work to separate the whole thing out from anything eastern and making sure one's lower centers are free from any such ties, would be much moreso.

[ButterflyWoman]

Some interesting ideas/thoughts/concepts have made their way into my awareness of late, regarding the ego and its function, ego collapse, psychosis, etc. I wasn't actively looking for this information, nor was I even particularly thinking of it. It just came to me and sort of fit in to the whole of my understanding in an interesting way.

It is my direct experience that the mind and the ego are not the same, although they are related. The purpose of the ego (and it DOES have a purpose, no matter what "kill the ego" rhetoric is going around out there) is to provide contrast, context, difference, etc. The ego says "This is ME, and that is YOU" or "These are my private thoughts, and that is the voice of a newscaster reading a story about someone in Indonesia". It also generates things like "this is good, this is bad, I like this, I don't like this, I think this, I am like this and not like that" and so forth.

Without this kind of contrast, boundaries, filtering, etc., you end up being unable to differentiate your thoughts from things you hear on the radio, just as one possible example. You may think everyone is listening to your thoughts, or you may think that everything you see or hear is some sort of encoded message for you, and so on. It's essentially psychosis, where everything is all tossed in together in one big soup, and you can't tell where the bowl ends and the soup begins... (Note: This is a VERY simplified explanation, and this may or may not apply to all forms of psychosis; I'm only speaking of the kind of psychosis, or maybe you could say pseudo-psychosis, that happens when the ego isn't functioning in a way that allows you to experience appropriate contrast, context, etc.)

What SHOULD happen with spiritual awakening is that your point of reference/conscious awareness shifts into a position that is not seated right inside the self that the ego has built. Then it's possible to view the ego for what it is, and while it may take some time to really detach from the ego's self-definitions and created persona, when Awareness is elsewhere, it's much easier to do and a good deal less traumatic, as these things go.

When/if the ego collapses while the main point-of-reference is WITHIN that ego-created self, it's extremely messy, to say the least. I have experienced this, though at the time I had no idea what was actually happening. I was terrified that I would lose my "self", that "I" would die, and that's a pretty classic symptom of ego disintegration, when experienced from within the ego-self. I was "borderline psychotic" some of the time, and I did end up in the psych ward for a while (I had violent mood swings and got a diagnosis of Bipolar I, but that has completely and utterly gone, so I have to question that diagnosis; either it miraculously healed completely leaving no trace or I never had it to begin with).

DISCLAIMER: This is a line of understanding which is still evolving. I make ZERO claims as to "truth" or "rightness" or anything of that sort. This is simply what I understand at this point in space and time, based on my own direct experience and observations and input from other people.

[farewell2arms]

When/if the ego collapses while the main point-of-reference is WITHIN that ego-created self, it's extremely messy, to say the least. I have experienced this, though at the time I had no idea what was actually happening. I was terrified that I would lose my "self", that "I" would die, and that's a pretty classic symptom of ego disintegration, when experienced from within the ego-self.

I guess this is the main process for anyone new to K awakening, in many cases. I actually see it as co-creation: the point isn't to dissolve the ego, it is to transmute it. The darkness experienced is transmuted into light, metaphorically speaking. So, you need to go through these things to grow; or rather, growth can't happen if you do not go through these experiences. The larger the ego, the more lessons learned on the path. Of course, it's just a theory and a belief, but it works for me.

This could be supported by your theory of the ego as a necessity for discernment, contrast and variation in life. Perhaps the final result of such a co-creation is a new type of being, a creator with a healthy, fully functional ego, to be used as a tool for creating, instead of experiencing distortion in life.


John

[ButterflyWoman]

I actually see it as co-creation: the point isn't to dissolve the ego, it is to transmute it.
*nod* Yes, that's well-put.


So, you need to go through these things to grow; or rather, growth can't happen if you do not go through these experiences.
I don't know if it's a requirement. I think it CAN happen any way it's possible to imagine it happening, and probably a few ways that nobody is likely to imagine. But a suddenly transformation, with no transition and no story in between is.... well, abrupt. It is completely true to say that I am emphatically NOT the same person I was then. If the "I" that I am now were to suddenly wake up back then as that person.... Well. Let's just say, it would be... messy, to the point of possibly destroying the mind as well as the ego, I guess you could say. (Honestly, I haven't puzzled this out. I'm writing as I'm thinking and looking. So don't take any of this as some sort of wisdom or anything, it's just this mind trying to look at the situation from different angles.)


The larger the ego, the more lessons learned on the path. Of course, it's just a theory and a belief, but it works for me.
I don't know about larger. I suspect it's more about patterns of stubborn habit and some of the very, very early beliefs some of us carry around and which form the basis of our reality (for example, the belief that you have to do everything yourself because you can't count on anyone else or any outside force or entity to take care of you).


Perhaps the final result of such a co-creation is a new type of being, a creator with a healthy, fully functional ego, to be used as a tool for creating, instead of experiencing distortion in life.
Yes. This is what I've been seeing lately, actually. I haven't really put it into words, but there you go. :)

[psionickx]

Hi psionickx,

In these cases, is it known why people included in this faction reached k-awakened with no or minimal emotional/psychological suffering or discomfort?

:arrow: Common Sense.

Well me and members in my clique (maybe I ought write the word posse instead - goes easier on most egos 8) ) did a lot of pre-K-activation prep.

If youre going to start flirting with potent forces the least most common denominator stands out to be being prepared beforehand.

Like I said ...common sense ...dont you think? :roll:

[psionickx]

I think the term "spiritually elite" is something you have in your own psyche, hence the notion that this is something that could bear exploring. Where is that coming from, and why?

[farewell2arms]

I don't know if it's a requirement. I think it CAN happen any way it's possible to imagine it happening, and probably a few ways that nobody is likely to imagine. But a suddenly transformation, with no transition and no story in between is.... well, abrupt. It is completely true to say that I am emphatically NOT the same person I was then. If the "I" that I am now were to suddenly wake up back then as that person.... Well. Let's just say, it would be... messy, to the point of possibly destroying the mind as well as the ego, I guess you could say. (Honestly, I haven't puzzled this out. I'm writing as I'm thinking and looking. So don't take any of this as some sort of wisdom or anything, it's just this mind trying to look at the situation from different angles.)

Don't really have any kind of experience of anything like that, so I can't comment...

Though perhaps there are different laws or parameters for what is allowed/possible depending on what universe you are in... just speculating, or course...

I still haven't got a clue what the differences between Uraeus and the "normal" K are. Perhaps it's got something to do with this, I mean, changing the underlying mechanisms of transformation of self in some way or something.



I don't know about larger. I suspect it's more about patterns of stubborn habit and some of the very, very early beliefs some of us carry around and which form the basis of our reality (for example, the belief that you have to do everything yourself because you can't count on anyone else or any outside force or entity to take care of you).

Yeah, that's probably a better way to put it.

[ButterflyWoman]

Though perhaps there are different laws or parameters for what is allowed/possible depending on what universe you are in...
What you are able to allow in your reality generates the limits. The "me" I am now isn't easily fazed by "weird stuff" happening, reality going wobbly, sudden insights that cause the bottom to drop out on existing belief structures, etc. I could probably even cope if I were to go to bed tonight and wake up in a different reality, depending on what that reality was and how different it was from the reality I now live. But if the self who was semi-insane, lived below the poverty line in a bad neighborhood and was living with a guy who turned into non-newtonian fluid at the slightest sign of ruffles in his idea of how things should be were to wake up and find she lived in Australia with this weird chubby science guy and had some weird kids with him and drove a station wagon around the suburbs every day, I'm not so sure how she'd take it. She might have lost her mind, entirely, as opposed to temporarily.

It is also the case that she/I BELIEVED that there was something seriously wrong with her/myself, and that healing would be lengthy and painful. Reality couldn't flow any other way, given the limits of that belief.

I suspect that rather a lot of people have similar limiting beliefs about the difficulty and rarity of spiritual awakening. Stuff about "being worthy" and "earning" it and "working" for it and so on. And so, for them, there are questions of worthiness and working hard to earn it, etc.

If there is one thing I am seeing more and more, and with greater and greater clarity, it's that our beliefs, even (and maybe especially) the ones of which we are not consciously aware, affect the flow of infinite possibilities and force reality to flow the way it does for us.

Or... well.... maybe it's only MY reality that works that way.... :P :mrgreen:



I still haven't got a clue what the differences between Uraeus and the "normal" K are.
Me, either. *shrug*

[Tutor]

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[psionickx]

frankly, I suspect that in a lot of cases, it's not that the person talking about having a difficult Kundalini awakening or other spiritual emergency, so much as the listener's own ego interpreting their own stuff (subconscious fears of inferiority, etc).


Ignore my sporadic interference please .

[Tutor]

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[psionickx]

Hello heliac ,
Sorry im a late responder ...dont tend to write much ...prior engagements.. sorry...since i only tend to write when it mantains productivity everywhere and provides for a more quality experience online.

When kundalini unleashes itself...its not a subtle process...like absolute royalty she awakens from sleep only to close her lids again...and again.....and again...until all is arranged around her wholly to her convenience...which was the default setting to begin with....thats what Swami Satyananda Sarwasti says in his beautifully designed course for a more systemized kundalini based undertaking in tantra.
Genevieve Lewis Paulson takes the same undertone in kundalini and the chakras ..but that as a course fails to take you beyond a certain level....specially once you realize the prevelantly typical "7 chakra model" is somewhat outdated , but that is beg your pardon...digression :shock: .

If your'e an especially imaginitive person it's like a Phoenix Raptor in the white heat of total ignition.... occuring afterwards or co-currently with the growth spurt in the Serpentine Phase as over time each kundal undulates away in un-spiral.


A rough experience could also be related to going about the process wrong in deliberate awakenings.

there's no such thing as a "deliberate awakening"

...it all has higher engineering. :arrow: evolution is liberation on so many levels i think :!:

[ButterflyWoman]

there's no such thing as a "deliberate awakening"

...it all has higher engineering. :arrow: evolution is liberation on so many levels i think :!:
I would have to agree with this. The ego-self is no more capable of the kind of changes wrought by awakening than a cartoon drawing is of picking up a pencil, erasing bits of itself, and drawing in features it prefers. Ego-self might SAY "Okay, I want to wake up now" but it doesn't have the ability to do that on its own (no matter how much it thinks it does). The best ego-self can do is to get out of the way and let the Self do its work.

[psionickx]

On a more personal note Kundalini's mainstream progression took a bad hit with the whole "Gopi Krishna Fiasco"...honestly IMO there is no use whipping dead horses..too much of a one thing that went wrong in midst of thausands that went fine that somehow manages to gain attention for reasons connotative .
I was particularly drawn the late El Collie's first most trip too a bookstore when her kundalini initially errupted..... she was asking for a "kundalini book" at a store...her husband had to pshyically withold her as she kept breaking out in spontaneous mudras .


Would the moderators please take into consideration adding this thread to the Kundalini forum too? - i think it will make for an informative read for people strolling into there :D

[CFTraveler]

I agree. It sort of seems to go there.
I left the shadow topic so it is now in both subforums.

[natalie-1984]

How would I prepare beforehand for this type of experience?

I want to take this slowely, I wouldn't want it all raised at once. I don't think I am mentally stable for that and it sounds dangerous. I think I have had some spurts here and there. After my very first AP I had this feeling of waves up and down my whole body, they would come and go here and there. It felt a little warm, and it felt like energy. Very similar to the way I feel when I listen to music sometimes. When I hear a good song I get these rushes all over my body, I think it has to do with the emotions I get from hearing it. Another thing that sometimes happens when I have a lightbulb moment about "reality" or think about something spiritual I will get dizzy and my pulse will race, and sometimes I will get those body rushes too.

CPW, I believe that I have bipolar 2 disorder. My emotions seem to go back and forth a lot with no apparent reason. One minute I am euphoric and love everyone and everything, and the next I want to crawl into bed and cry. I think maybe my ego is rebelling. I get this little voice inside my head that says "why are you so happy? There is nothing to be happy about, you are overreacting", and then I get depressed. I am considering going back on meds, but if this could be some sort of awakening experience then I don't think going on Rxs would be the best idea.

This is my first time on this Kindalini forum, so I am going to go do some research!

[ButterflyWoman]

I had a few more thoughts (uh oh! :twisted:). Thought I'd write them down here.

There is a phenomenon known as Sudden Wealth Syndrome. You can Google it if you want to know specifics, but, basically, it affects some people who suddenly find themselves the recipient of great wealth, more than they have ever previously had. This is most commonly associated with lottery winners, but it's also known to happen to children of wealthy parents who inherit a lot of money (you'd think wealthy parents would try to prepare their kids for the eventuality of being in charge of all that wealth, but apparently that doesn't always happen).

The sudden change can so disrupt a person's self-identity that they react in all kinds of weird ways. Most seem to just "lose" the money (they give it away, spend it excessively, disregard sound financial advice, get bilked out of it, etc. etc.), but some seem to experience what amounts to a breakdown, because their former identity as "not rich" or "working class" or "not in charge" or whatever it was is gone, and they have no idea who they are.

There is NOTHING that will cause distress like having your identity shaken or changed suddenly (just as there is NOTHING people hate more than having their reality messed with).

This relates to the topics I've already written about in this thread because it goes with the theme of why some people have a very difficult or even pseudo-psychotic experience when they undergo spiritual emergence/awakening. It has to do with the perception of self. When the self-constructed walls of identity starts to crumble, it can affect people very, very badly, that's true, but more to the point, undergoing a lengthy and maybe difficult "passage" or "transformation" period allows for adjustment to a new and different identity. Without that... well, you might just crack into lots of pieces and never really rebuild any semblance of a working persona with which to interface with and operate within the material aspect of Creation.

There is a whole story now about "how" I went from who I was then to who I am now, and so it's easy to accept. I can point to specifics, I can follow a timeline, I can say how it happened, etc. There was no suddenness involved, ever. It was always something that happened in a way that looked like and felt like a gradual process, so as not to break the willing suspension of disbelief, as we say of fiction storytelling.

So that's one more possible reason for the sometimes difficult passage that some people experience, I suspect. It's to allow the mind/ego to adjust to a new identity and a new reality. (Which, of course, makes me start to think about how possible it would be to live a reality in which these "fill in" stories are not necessary, and you can just leap from one reality to another... but that's probably another thread).

[psionickx]

an ego that cant stand the mere pressure of monetarial fluctuation and ends up breaking down because of it ...might not necessarily haved had the more/less-money-issue as a trigger dissolving/shaking/crumbling it down.Goes to signify that such a psyche/self was more or less a ticking bomb and the fluctuation only served to catalyze the breakdown...it might have not be have been the fluctuation itself whereas infact there could've been a variety of factors out of many behind it.
What i however do agree is the notion of "Insecurity".People might have issues with money and personality-sensitive quirks to it later or earlier on in life.That i take as under-developement and dismiss it as such since to me personally it doesn't relate much to ego-breakdown.

Personally I've been very hesitant to add to the "Ego Dissolution" aspect of the thread...mostly because such a process is competely totally and entirely uneccessary
:arrow: The intent of evolution is to obviate that which impedes growth...for a lack of better word however "messy" that growth may well be.

"Walking over hot coals build up will-power"
"Ego death/insatibility and ensuing psychosis is the going criteria for an awakening"
"Meditation actually lowers blood pressure"
"For better grounding eat a lot of read meat and inhale deeply"
"Violet is the scientifically proven color for better more protective shielding."
....society as as whole has a very twisted opinion on a "transformation process"...which is just risible...who is exactly to say a tranformation process can't be a growth-retarding event itself well....as long as a "transformation" is taking place right?.I do feel that devolution is a phenomenon more common than suspect.
As is expected of human nature.. most of us fall prey to stereotyping/categorization... most of us find they either equate a "metamorphosis" to a "dark-alley-ending-in-bright-light" phenomena or a "coccoon-and-butterflies" type of thing....It could very well be none and neither and everything in between .
Since most of us do grow up and imbibe such metaphorical thinking we later on tend to run into problems, evolutionally speaking ,when "self-placed-mechanisms-of-blockade" which (might not be be disimilar to ego-barriers)....start to crumble/give as the Self emerges.

For sake of greater understanding allow me to illustrate my point with a personal example.In the very start of my awkaneing i remember reading with express clarity that "sexual energy is an octave lowered state of potent but non-refined spiritual energy"...therefore the point of contention being that if you generate sexual engery it transmutes into spiritual energy which ultimately leads to or expedites evolution.The most commonly authored notion behind that factoid "Celibate is the life-style of choice for the more dedicated spiritual aspirant"
:arrow: absolute utter total nonsense .
The energy isnt just sitting there all turning itself into a refined species all out of its own accord.This little gem i discovered after understanding the acutual working mechanics/processes of sublimation myself.Needless to say i was constantly coming across one and thing and finding it to be another.
The upshot of it all is that trial-&-error rates far higher then a lot of postulated generalization...finanically induced fits of egoic crisis or otherwise.


..i cant help but think the original thread's been somewhat hijacked :twisted:

[natalie-1984]

What if I already know who my "self" is, I know how to quiet the monkey mind and listen to the little person observing it all. Or is the self something even more than that? I will get messages (intuition/gut feelings/downloads of info) from this quiet observer. Or maybe I am slowely going insane imagining a little person inside my head?

Some things I have noticed about this observer or thoughts, is that it has no judgment and no opinion, it just pretty much delivers information and wisdom and listens to my thoughts. And I feel like when I am APing or falling asleep or daydreaming this thing is huge and observing from the outside, it feels like someone is next to me staring at me. . .but in a nice way :P

Do you guys know what I mean?

[ButterflyWoman]

What if I already know who my "self" is, I know how to quiet the monkey mind and listen to the little person observing it all.
At this point in time, and with hindsight and experience, it appears to me that you have to actually make the shift to that position, not just be aware of it. It's like, I know there's a bed in the next room, am fully aware of it, could write an essay on it or even draw a sketch of the room, but until I get up from my chair and go in there, I'm still here in my office, typing on the computer.

Same with the shift in perception from ego-self to Observer or what I call not-self (that's just what it feels like to me). The shift has to be made first, before the ego is... well, collapsed is an okay word, but others would do just as well. If the point of reference is inside the ego-self when it collapses, it's extremely messy, to say the very least (been there, done that, and both ways, which I expect is unusual, but I've always been weird, so...).

What you're describing sounds to me like you're aware of some of the greater Self and in communication with that Self, which is good. But until you've shifted into a place that is most definitely not your everyday ego-self, ego collapse would be pretty messy, if not harrowing.


Or maybe I am slowely going insane imagining a little person inside my head?
You don't feel insane to me. Your energy is sometimes scattered, but you don't have a "crazy" vibe (if that's any comfort).

However, just a word of warning. Don't toy with the idea of insanity. I used to do that, thinking that insanity would be some way to escape or something. I ended up putting myself in the psych ward (my worst fear, at the time) for a brief period, and I certainly was extremely unstable, emotionally and mentally, for quite a long time. I see now, with benefit of hindsight and greater clarity, that I caused that to manifest. It didn't have to happen that way, and if I'd had a clue, it might not have.

So, just... don't dabble in the crazy. It's not worth it. ;)

[natalie-1984]

I love your analogy about the bed in the next room, that makes sense to me! I'm not exactly sure how to go about not being in the ego when it collapses, but I think I should practice more body awareness, and being more in the present moment, and quieting the mind. That would be a great start!

Yes, I do feel scattered sometimes and I'm not surprised that you can pick up on that. The lack of sleep these past few days isn't helping me.

I guess I use the going crazy excuse because it's more comforting to my ego than knowing that I am on the brink of something here. My ego doesn't want to be surpressed so it says "you're being crazy!". And I'm still worried about what other people think of me. Sometimes.

I'm so glad I found this website, you guys are so smart and give such great advice and support!

[ButterflyWoman]

I'm not exactly sure how to go about not being in the ego
That has to happen on its own, from what I've seen. The best the ego-self can do is get out of the way, not try to take control (it hasn't got any), and not resist.


I should practice more body awareness, and being more in the present moment, and quieting the mind. That would be a great start!
These are all excellent exercises with many benefits, the greatest of which is lowering resistance so Spirit can do its work. ;)


My ego doesn't want to be surpressed so it says "you're being crazy!".
It thinks it's you. It doesn't want anything to threaten that. Totally normal.


And I'm still worried about what other people think of me.
Well, I think you're all right. :)


I'm so glad I found this website
I'm glad you're here, too.

[heliac]

Hello heliac ,
Sorry im a late responder ...dont tend to write much ...prior engagements.. sorry...since i only tend to write when it mantains productivity everywhere and provides for a more quality experience online.

When kundalini unleashes itself...its not a subtle process...like absolute royalty she awakens from sleep only to close her lids again...and again.....and again...until all is arranged around her wholly to her convenience...which was the default setting to begin with....thats what Swami Satyananda Sarwasti says in his beautifully designed course for a more systemized kundalini based undertaking in tantra.
Genevieve Lewis Paulson takes the same undertone in kundalini and the chakras ..but that as a course fails to take you beyond a certain level....specially once you realize the prevelantly typical "7 chakra model" is somewhat outdated , but that is beg your pardon...digression :shock: .

If your'e an especially imaginitive person it's like a Phoenix Raptor in the white heat of total ignition.... occuring afterwards or co-currently with the growth spurt in the Serpentine Phase as over time each kundal undulates away in un-spiral.


A rough experience could also be related to going about the process wrong in deliberate awakenings.

there's no such thing as a "deliberate awakening"

...it all has higher engineering. :arrow: evolution is liberation on so many levels i think :!:


Ideally, deliberate as in an approach to a process that is grounded in common sense, slow, considered, carefully planned. Can kundalini not arise by way of careful consideration?The fire will still burn whether someone is a caretaker or a pyro...These kundalini pretzels are making me thirsty

[heliac]

On a more personal note Kundalini's mainstream progression took a bad hit with the whole "Gopi Krishna Fiasco"...honestly IMO there is no use whipping dead horses..too much of a one thing that went wrong in midst of thausands that went fine that somehow manages to gain attention for reasons connotative .
I was particularly drawn the late El Collie's first most trip too a bookstore when her kundalini initially errupted..... she was asking for a "kundalini book" at a store...her husband had to pshyically withold her as she kept breaking out in spontaneous mudras .


Would the moderators please take into consideration adding this thread to the Kundalini forum too? - i think it will make for an informative read for people strolling into there :D

I have read about El Collie recently...it's a moving story, and a sad ending :cry:

[psionickx]

i just can't help but feel instinctively that if it is approached in a sound and down to earth way that a lot of the consequences are minimized.

Ideally, deliberate as in an approach to a process that is grounded in common sense, slow, considered, carefully planned
As opposed to quixotic , risky , unplanned and just playing it by the ear because it makes for so much more fun! :D


It just seems like sometimes people who talk about their kundalini describe it almost like a brutal hazing and that they are proud to have endured so that they can now have a nice big ultimate spiritual merit badge.
There's not much of a way i can say this without coming off as bigheaded.Allow me to use hypotheticals.Lets just I have a stellar academic profile and ivy league is made for (no donations , no contributions of charity or construction, no kinsmanship).Sheer dint of hardwork.
Is that me being clique-oriented, blinging off accoutrements?.It's been said on this thread before but i will reiterate anyway : why would this chafe someone the wrong way?


Does being able to endure psychosis really need to be an intrinsic value in anyone attempting to raise kundalini?
After a certain point in development you understand that reality is tweak-prone...i have no idea who is where at and which place in their developement ... but i do however know when seasoned faculty speaks if i find it useful that if im not taking notes then im at least listening with tympanic membranes well-taut :


What you are able to allow in your reality generates the limits. The "me" I am now isn't easily fazed by "weird stuff" happening, reality going wobbly, sudden insights that cause the bottom to drop out on existing belief structures, etc.

Obviously this is nonsense; to deal with one's own serpent is to work with a part of one's own anatomy, and there is nobody on earth who has the authority to intrude on that process or define one's own personal experience.

On a more productive note Private Investigation into these things is a fruitful undertaking , then again in my limited understanding all i can suggest is to relax.....take it easy...keep it simple.Drink a lot of water...exercise...meditate.


These kundalini pretzels are making me thirsty
:arrow: "Cuckoo-Kool-Aid" rates high on quench-factor.....does wonders for kundalini too i heard.


This whole idea of "spiritual elitism" is incorrectly placed. It's actually "egotistical elitism" that you're talking about.
'nuff said. :wink:

[heliac]

These kundalini pretzels are making me thirsty
:arrow: "Cuckoo-Kool-Aid" rates high on quench-factor.....does wonders for kundalini too i heard.


LOL :lol:

YUCK, Kool-Aid, so...saftey schoolish. Hardly something to get all double rainbow in the sky eyed about.

Now starbucks...there we have a winner :D :lol:
http://youtu.be/E84YVSzGnyw

[ButterflyWoman]

I noted that someone on this board mentioned El Collie, and I went back and read some of her writings. I was struck by this quote, which of course, it not El Collie but Alan Watts: "On seeing through the illusion of the ego, it is impossible to think of oneself as better than, or superior to, others for having done so."

Just thought I'd share that. Oh, and here's a link to the El Collie material, which I very much recommend: http://www.elcollie.com/st/st.html

[psionickx]

so...saftey schoolish

:arrow: Maybe perhaps.....the exact reason why i recommended it to begin with?


i have no idea who is where at and which place in their developement ...
'nuff said , thats what i said.


"On seeing through the illusion of the ego, it is impossible to think of oneself as better than, or superior to, others for having done so."
this i will be ruminating over.Thankyou. :)