Are you guys normal:)?

[astral_1976]

You guys are really interesting people!

Even if I visit a science fiction board, I doubt I would find any crazy discussions like that yet you all believe your experiences are real etc.
I do have OBE too so I am not criticizing you, don't get me wrong...

I am curious, however, how do you see yourselves? Do you guys have a normal life? Do you talk these things with your friends/colleagues/family? are you guys all deeply involved in metaphysics/paranormal stuff?
Do you consider yourselves blessed, or cursed, or just ordinary people.

But regardless you have to admit AP can be considered supernatural. Even buddhism considers this supernatural:)

"One of the Buddha’s great disciples, Moggallana is recorded to have six types of supernormal powers. Through developing his mind over an infinite period of time, Moggallana was capable of a much wider experience in space and time. His knowledge transcended the limitations and boundaries of the normal mind. Some of his powers and feats have been carefully documented and preserved to help future generations understand the full potential of the mind. One of the power is astral travel"

PS: Somehow my nickname is deleted (klabs1976)... CFTraveler did you delete my nickname:)?
Anyhow, I decided not to do OBE/AP anymore but somehow they happen involuntarily so I just welcome the experience...

[Sinera]

... crazy discussions like that yet you all believe your experiences are real etc....
they are real

Do you consider yourselves blessed, or cursed, or just ordinary people.
I am absolutely normal. The rest of the world is f*****g crazy.

[lightgal]

normal is relative to what you are used to

[Korpo]

Hey, klabs1976.

I guess for most people I pass as very normal. And for a long time that was also my goal - be normal and be considered normal for the sake of acceptance.

Nowadays I have however come to the point where none of the religions I know nor society itself provide me with something I would consider a model for my life. It is at times disorienting as a mode of living, and the more I commit myself to that, the more abnormal ("different from the norm") I would consider myself, even though it doesn't show for the most part and it doesn't bother me.

In hindsight it is strange to see how often I wanted to be something for the sake of the acceptance by others. Nowadays I aspire to be myself, which holds its own surprises.

Cheers,
Oliver

[aardvark]

Normal is overrated.

Besides, I tend to think there's no such thing as normal in this fluid and f'ed up reality of ours. :)

[CFTraveler]

You guys are really interesting people! First of all, I didn't delete your account, if I had all your posts would disappear (did they?) and I think we may have a hacker. I'll have to look into this.
Secondly, posting a thread on an AP forum basically telling people that they are "interesting"? And using phrases like "you believe your experiences are real"? Is it really you, or did you forget the 'respect' rule?


I do have OBE too so I am not criticizing you, don't get me wrong... Not overtly, no.


I am curious, however, how do you see yourselves? How do you see others? How do you see yourself? Consider this- I have always been me, so how else could I see myself?

Do you guys have a normal life? What's a normal life? I am married, with children, and work. And do this on my spare time. Have other hobbies too, but not to this extent. What do you consider normal? Having shallow conversations about clothes and boys (or girls?) We talk about 'being', 'consciousness' and 'the big picture'. Is this too deep for you?


Do you talk these things with your friends/colleagues/family? are you guys all deeply involved in metaphysics/paranormal stuff? It's a metaphysics board. I don't know about paranormal, although we do have a section about what is consider paranormal, I personally don't believe in paranormal stuff.


Do you consider yourselves blessed, or cursed, or just ordinary people. An ordinary person, just a little more introspective than most, but you'd be surprised at the level of self-awareness some people have.


But regardless you have to admit AP can be considered supernatural. Even buddhism considers this supernatural:) I don't believe in the supernatural. So, it's not for me to say what buddhism sees AP.



Anyhow, I decided not to do OBE/AP anymore but somehow they happen involuntarily so I just welcome the experience... Well, good for you. But you can stop them if you want to. Just go to sleep fast.

[CFTraveler]

memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=33670 (http://forums.astraldynamics.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=33670)

Klabs is still here. So, are you really klabs? Because klabs is polite and respectful, and you don't seem to be the same person. Are you a hacker?

[astral_1976]

First of all, I didn't delete your account, if I had all your posts would disappear (did they?) and I think we may have a hacker. I'll have to look into this.
Secondly, posting a thread on an AP forum basically telling people that they are "interesting"? And using phrases like "you believe your experiences are real"? Is it really you, or did you forget the 'respect' rule?


Hey CFTraveller, its really me...I tried to log-in many times thru my old account but I couldn't. I also tried to retrieve my password but somehow the system didn't recognize my email address so I had to get another account.

Lol...I was only joking...I called you guys "interesting" but I didn't mean anything bad and neither I thought anyone would get it the wrong way. I can OBE/AP and 100% believe the authenticity of it so please no hard feelings. I truly believe you guys are interesting. I wish I had more people like you around me but I can only share my experiences thru this forum because no one would understand. I think a lot of people here are very special (again, in a good way)...
God (whoever your God is) bless you all ...

PS: I also have great respect for your efforts in this forum. You help a lot of people like me here so thank you for that...

[CFTraveler]

The multiple log-in problems has been happening for days to various posters, so we do think someone is trying to hack into accounts to get into the forums. If this happens again, even with the new accounts, just give it a few minutes and try again.
Robert says this should be resolved when we update the site but I'm not sure when this is going to be.

[greytraveller]

Hallo astral 1976
I totally agree that OBEs and the people who experience them are interesting. I would even go so far as to call them fascinating.
Regarding being a normal person - here I can only speak for myself. I regard myself outside of the cultural normal because
1) only about 10% of the population experience OBEs. And of that 10% probably fewer than 1/2 deliberately try to induce OBEs. So as far as that goes that puts me in a minority of about 3% to 5%.
2) Fewer people still keep detailed records of their OBEs and regularly discuss them via the internet. Think about it, if 10% of all American have OBEs that puts the total number at about 30,000,000 (That's Right 30 MILLION ! :shock: ). If only 10% of those 3 million are members of a website about OBEs then that number is 3,000,000 !) Yet the member list here is about 6,000 (or so??) Maybe the total members for All OBE websites is about 40,000 to 50,000 (most probably a LOT less). That's makes me and you a minority within a minority.
3) My views (theories, concepts, experiences, etc) about OBEs are much more esoteric than most people's. (I won't go into details.)
So add it all up and it is easy to come to the conclusion that I am NOT normal. The fact that the vast majority of scientists and medical professionals will not publicly acknowledge the reality of OBE shows how radically different my worldview is from the current mainstream. Yet IMO that is Okay.

Regards 8)
Grey

[CFTraveler]

ps. Hi Grey.
I disagree with the statement that only 10% of the population has OBEs. According to my own estimation (from talking to church groups and other groups that are open to this in a conversation) it's more like 20% having spontaneous experiences, and a bit more that have them but consider them dreams.
I do agree with the other statistics, they agree with my own observations.

[Korpo]

Hey, Grey.

Aptly put. :)

Cheers,
Oliver

[astral_1976]

Hey Grey,

I really really find it hard to believe 10% have OBEs...Actually I remember reading he same statistics somewhere but I can't find it now.
In my opnion this is way too inflated. 10% means 100s of millions of people in EU/North America/Asia etc. When I visit social media and forums like this , I see very very low participation (couple thousand hits even on youtube videos). If millions of ppl having OBEs then the participation should be much much higher - especially a topic like this should take some serious attention...And 10% is significant enough to draw attention of the scientific community. So far they are silent about this for the most part.In my opinion, the rate is 1% at best....not even that...

CFTraveller, your observations based on church groups...these are spiritiual communities so I guess it makes sense that they have much higher participation rate.

[greytraveller]

Greeting All

CFTraveler
Am surprised to find that many people in your church group are open to discussing the subject of OBEs. I am Not disputing your 20 % estimate yet perhaps astral 1976 is correct in that your church groups do consist of a representative sample of the overall population. I based my estimates on the (relatively small) number of people who are members of an OBE website like AD. Whether 10% or 20% of the population have OBEs (and various surveys conducted over the years have revealed various figures (9%, 17%, etc))that still means that most people do Not have OBEs and the vast majority of people that do have OBEs either do not realize what is happening or they do Not wish to discuss it with others outside of their immediate family. And that's really too bad because the potential for learning and growth is just about unlimited.

Regards 8)
Grey

[CFTraveler]

Greeting All

CFTraveler
Am surprised to find that many people in your church group are open to discussing the subject of OBEs.

Regards 8)
Grey It came about in a weird way, and it surprised me greatly when they came out of the "projector's closet". I can tell about it if you want to hear it.

[natalie-1984]

Do I consider myself normal? What is normal?
I love how you replied to this CFT and I would like to also add that in our society talking about shallow things is probably considered normal. And talking about physics and "mystical" experiences are considered abnormal. I rarely talk about my experiences with anyone. I guess I am afraid I would seem crazy and get put away, or have my children taken away from me.

From the outside I seem normal, I am a single mom of 2 just trying to make it. But once you get to know me I am pretty deep and have many layers (of craziness :lol: )

What do I think of my experiences? I think anyone can do them. I just hit the right spot of being awake and alseep at the same time, and it just happens. I no longer get vibrations or hear the loud noise, I just feel "seperaty" and slip out like a glove! But maybe I have a bit of an advantage since I have always had lucid dreams and been a little psychic. But honostly - yah anyone can do it!

Also, most of the time my OOBEs feel more real than reality, more LUCID. In reality my vision is faulty and a bit blurry, but when I am out it is usually crystal clear. That is one of the major reasons I think this is real! How else could I explain that? If this was all fake or just a dream I would be open to that possibility as well.

I appreciate your post, I didn't think you were being rude at all. But I could see how it could be read that way. I like the bluntness of your post, it gives me a chance to learn about other people's point of view. I would love to talk to someone who DID think we were all crazy! That would be neat! :mrgreen:

[greytraveller]

CFT
Very funny, "projector's closet" :lol: and lol. That's a clever term I've never heard before. My "projector's closet" doesn't have any skeletons (an elemental or two but No skeletons :D ).
I am quite intrigued about what brought about an open discussion of OBEs in your church group so please, by all means, tell me what happened. (Either here in this forum if you feel it is not off topic or by pm or email.)

Warm regards 8)
Grey

[CFTraveler]

Here is fine. I've told it before so I thought it might be boring.
At the time I was in the Board of Directors of my church, and also doing some platform work, and I was due to take the Workshop at the TMI Robert gave a few years ago (three or four?) on the weekend. So I told the minister I would be away for the weekend for a workshop, and didn't give any details.
I was back the next weekend when someone asked me where I was, and I said 'at a workshop at the Monroe Institute'. Someone else asked what it was about, and I (truthfully) answered that it was a weekend course to practice energy work, and one of the ladies perked up and said "The Monroe Institute? The one that teaches OBE and stuff like that?" So now I had to answer, so I confessed that yes, that one, and she got all excited, since she knew what it was about. So of course, many of the ladies in the church started asking questions, and then after the service, (we have a 'social communion' after the service, with pot lucks and such) so after, a group congregated around me and started asking me assorted questions about OBEs and what Robert teaches, etc, and from that a lot of the people there (a lot of senior citizens in this particular church, for whatever reason) started reporting having had spontaneous projections or waking up with vibrations. (That's where I got my percentages, lol) and even the minister admitted that she got vibrations and the ocassional spontaneous projection, but had never had the opportunity to talk about that.
So from that (the minister) and I got together for lunch, she drilled me about what I believed about them and after a while of questions (like about the planes, etc- obviously she had done some research about it and wanted to know what I thought about the belief systems associated with it.) She also asked me to give her pointers about how to consciously induce them. So after a while she got together with the board and they agreed they would like for me to teach a mini-workshop about OBE to see how many people were interested.
So I taught the course (it was the first time) and it was incredibly successful. I had people from other churches attending, and it was nice, got my feet wet teaching this.

Then a year later I went back to my old church (a long story and for another time) and one of the teachers there had attended my class in the other church and liked it, and arranged for me to teach the class there. This one was not as well attended, and I think that it's because the group was very eclectic- and this church offered so many different courses about so many things that people just weren't that interested. But the ones that attended came back, so that's good.
:)

[astral_1976]

I like the bluntness of your post, it gives me a chance to learn about other people's point of view. I would love to talk to someone who DID think we were all crazy! That would be neat!
Thank you. Unfortunately, people think we are crazy:)
I finally get it out from my system and told this to one of my close friend and since that day he is trying to find out if I use any drugs:) lol...Of course I don't.
I somehow feel like it is my obligation to share this experience with atheists. I prefer not to talk with religious people as they already have faith and it is a good thing, I don't want to confuse them. But I believe our experiences can help atheist people. I was an atheist and I know how much of a relief I got after my frist OBE. Because it is really terrible to think that your life will be over forever after death, its almost deppresive feeling...

[turbulenceadams]

Atheism has nothing to do with not believing in an after-life. Atheists reject the belief in the existence of deities. It comes from the Greek atheos which means 'without god'.
For me, not believing in 'god' in no way takes away from my knowledge that I exist outside of my physical body.

[CFTraveler]

Atheism has nothing to do with not believing in an after-life. Atheists reject the belief in the existence of deities. It comes from the Greek atheos which means 'without god'.
For me, not believing in 'god' in no way takes away from my knowledge that I exist outside of my physical body. I agree. And many religious people don't believe in an afterlife anyway, when it comes down to it.

[astral_1976]

Atheism has nothing to do with not believing in an after-life. Atheists reject the belief in the existence of deities. It comes from the Greek atheos which means 'without god'.
For me, not believing in 'god' in no way takes away from my knowledge that I exist outside of my physical body.
Yes but majority of atheist do not believe in after life...that was my point...and not believing in after life may not be the wisest thing to do.
Also, it is not good for our well being in this world, you may disagree but this was my personal experience!
To me, it is very simple...believe in something positive and have a happy life...as simple as that...

[Sinera]

Atheism has nothing to do with not believing in an after-life. Atheists reject the belief in the existence of deities. It comes from the Greek atheos which means 'without god'.
For me, not believing in 'god' in no way takes away from my knowledge that I exist outside of my physical body.
Yes but majority of atheist do not believe in after life...that was my point...and not believing in after life may not be the wisest thing to do.
That's right, I can attest to it out of my own experience. Don't ask my why I committed this folly, maybe because I had quit church officially a short time before I registered there (in my country you are "born/baptised into" a religion) and was fed up with religionism in general and the power of the church in my country, so I joined an Atheist forum a few years ago (now I'm out of it again or only post there pretty sporadically once in half a year or so...).

Some (mostly strictly orthodox, some even fundamental) Christians were present there too and both parties were battling each other - no other groups in sight. I had thought otherwise before, because I never was an ant-spiritual person and hoped for more "free thinkers" there. But there are none!
Actually there were only extreme dogmatists fighing amongst each other. Consequently, after a while I - as the only esoteric/spriritual/metaphysical free-thinker - felt pretty alone there.

I can confirm that 99% of the Atheists there were/are strict dogmatists. Their belief system comes "ready-made" with labels and pre-packed - all included :wink: .
That means they were strictly of the materialist/scientism-ist/anti-esoteric&spiritual/skeptic/debunk-ist kind. And therefore, it's simple: there is NO SOUL, NO GOD(S), NO AFTERLIFE, NO OTHER DIMENSIONS OF EXISTENCE, NO OBEs -- It's all the brain/evolution, ... blahblahblah ... . Period. As easy as that. No discussion.

They were so rigidly trapped in a world view that allowed for no compromises. Of course, they would never call their world view a BELIEF system, since they have the "absolute (scientific) truth" behind them. They don't see that in their own way they created a belief and even a religion. But try it to make clear to them , as I did then in some futile attempts in posts, ... hopeless and frustrating.

„Most vocal non-believers and closed-minded skeptics are as wrapped up in their beliefs as those they ridicule or disagree with. The main difference is that they are more apt to deny that their beliefs are beliefs. (...) These folks are sure, that if they and their peer group have no direct experience of a larger reality, the larger reality must be the product of delusion. (The delusional always believe that they are non-delusional and that the non-delusional are delusional - such ist the nature of delusion.)“ - Thomas Campbell

[CFTraveler]

I wonder what these folks think of Quantum Physics, especially the Copenhagen interpretation, or even the Bohmian "Implicate Order" theories.....

[natalie-1984]

"I wonder what these folks think of Quantum Physics, especially the Copenhagen interpretation, or even the Bohmian "Implicate Order" theories....."

:shock: the whaty-what-what?!


CFT, I love your story! Man, you are so brave! I could never teach a class! But that's really cool how openminded they all were.

[astral_1976]

I wonder what these folks think of Quantum Physics, especially the Copenhagen interpretation, or even the Bohmian "Implicate Order" theories.....

I can answer that one because I have been there...
I am surrounded by atheists, and in fact there is only one religious friend I have, the rest are all atheists.
Many do not know anything about quantum physics. When I try to explain it, they look at me with empty eyes, like I am lying. When I show them some proof thru published articles, they seem to get interested but eventually many forgot about it after some time and completely lost interest. Can't blame them, its kinda hard to grasb quantum theories.

Very few know about QM. And they acknowledge the weirdness in quantum physics - I was one of them in the past. But eventually QM doesn't show any proof about soul and the continuity of consciousness after death, so they still consider after life as a wishful thinking. There was absoulately no way that I would accept after life if it wasn't for my OBE experience...

[CFTraveler]

Ok, I'll explain very simply and nonscientifically- the Copenhagen interpretation postulates that a quantum particle has two states- wave (also known as everywhere at once; no time) and particle- or, can be found in spacetime. According to the CI a quantum particle only becomes a particle (or, can be found in timespace) when measured or observed.
It has a few interpretations- that observation creates reality (not really, but something like this) or that observation shapes it. Very close but not exactly the same.
and the Bohmian implicate order says that the wave/particle duality inherent in any quantum particle is an indication that we only 'see' the wave/particle duality because we can only see part of the picture- that reality is something more that we haven't figured out how to detect, and that for example, entangled particles are actually views of the same thing, just as you and I are different views of the same thing. He goes on to describe it with the probe/tv analogy of a fishtank. (http://interpenetrate.blogspot.com/2007/02/bohms-analogy.html)
I didn't even include Everett's Many World Theories because it's too far out for skeptics to even entertain, much less consider seriously.

[greytraveller]

Greetings all

CFT
Thanx for sharing that story, I found it quite interesting. I am
a) surprised to hear that people in a Christian church were that open to the idea of OBE/AP (and even to the extent of deliberately trying to induce them!) and
b) doubly surprised to find that up to twenty percent of those people actually managed to make it OOB! Especially given that they were older persons who, as a rule, are more set in their ways, especially regarding the negative 'leanings' that mainstream Christianity has towards OBEs.

A quick aside about the CI of quantum physics. The particle location and the wavelength of a photon can Not be simultaneously measured because 1) If a particle is measured then the amount of extra light that it takes to find or locate the particle state excites the wavelength state to the point that the wavelength cannot be measured and
2) if the wavelength is measured then the amount of light is insufficient to simultaneously measure the location. If that sounds confusing it is because it IS confusing. This eventually prompted some scientist to theorize that the particle location and energy wavelength of a photon Can be measured simultaneously in a higher dimension. This, in turn, partially led to the theories of alternate or parallel universes.

Regards 8)
Grey

[natalie-1984]

I was thinking about taking a physics class at my local college because I am just thirstin' for knowledge, and I don't do very well with just reading about it in books.

Thank you for explaining CI. That is very interesting!

Something I have been pondering lately...do OOBE REALLY prove afterlife? Or does it just prove that your consciousness can leave your body? What if your consciousness just kind of evaporates after death? Or what if you just sort of melt back into the big ocean of superconsciousness (GOD, Source). :shock: ....Can't wait to find out though! :mrgreen:

[astral_1976]

do OOBE REALLY prove afterlife? Or does it just prove that your consciousness can leave your body? What if your consciousness just kind of evaporates after death? Or what if you just sort of melt back into the big ocean of superconsciousness (GOD, Source).

This is a great question. Can't wait what the experts i.e. CFTraveler and Caterpillarwoman would say about this...
I think it does prove in my opinion. When I get out of my body I haven't travel any places, I just stay at my apartment and go back to my body. So I haven't met any spirits etc. But I am a newbie. Others seen all these spirits and they argue they are not part of our subconscious creation - so their existence prove after life- in my opinion.

Gee, you put some doubt in my mind tho...I gotta struggle with this question now...lol

[CFTraveler]

Something I have been pondering lately...do OOBE REALLY prove afterlife? Or does it just prove that your consciousness can leave your body? I'm no expert, just an experiencer who likes to write.... and I don't think OBEs prove anything in the scientific sense. If you do this long enough and learn to maneuver, you may change your mind, but chances are, the only way to change your mind is to have an experience that can be verified, and specific enough to convince you. That may or may not happen.

As to afterlife theories, if you are a materialist, Anthony Peake's ITLADian theories may be interesting to you. It may challenge your worldview, but that's what we like to do, right? :D

[astral_1976]

As to afterlife theories, if you are a materialist, Anthony Peake's ITLADian theories may be interesting to you. It may challenge your worldview, but that's what we like to do, right?

Oh! I am so done with science when it comes to "mind". I read all different theories similiar to this, one particular example is Hameroff and Penrose (Objective reduction). These guys are onto something but none prove anything - all these theories are hard to be proven empirically.

Dalai Lama once said something interesting. He said: There are two types of science...
One- the science of matter. In matter science western civilizations re way advance compared to buddhists. He acknowledges the importance of material science tho.
Second - the science of mind- he says western civilizations are thousand years behind compared to buddhists. I buy that. OBE to me is a great proof of after life. But I acknowledge there are too many unknowns. For instance, one thing that bugs me is the "memory" problem. When I am out of my body, I can still remember a lot of things. But memory stored in brain and it is nothing more than chemical activity. So how come I still have memory when I am out. Either memory doesn't take place in brain or I am still connected to my physical brain when I am out and somehow there is an information transfer.

But if I have to choose between science and buddhism, I choose buddhism because of their deep experience with mind. I agree with Dalai Lama, they discover so many things and our modern science has a lot of catching up to do!

[atanas]

OBE to me is a great proof of after life. But I acknowledge there are too many unknowns. For instance, one thing that bugs me is the "memory" problem. When I am out of my body, I can still remember a lot of things. But memory stored in brain and it is nothing more than chemical activity. So how come I still have memory when I am out. Either memory doesn't take place in brain or I am still connected to my physical brain when I am out and somehow there is an information transfer.


or you're staying in the body all the time and not going anywhere during an OBE. That explains many of these complications...

[Serpentarius]

I am curious, however, how do you see yourselves?

The voices in my head are saying I'm quite normal. 8)

[Sinera]

memory doesn't take place in brain
yep!
That is my conclusion now. Everything that belongs to the mind (be it memory or thinking capacity or subconscious processing or whatever) is actually taking place "outside" (the latter in quotation marks since it is outside of 4D / spacetime, so 'outside' does not refer to "space" as we know it).


But if I have to choose between science and buddhism, I choose buddhism because of their deep experience with mind. I agree with Dalai Lama, they discover so many things and our modern science has a lot of catching up to do!
double-yep!
Btw, I just finished Fritjof Capras (now almost 'classic') "The Tao of Physics" that compares the ancient Eastern mystic teachings with modern science, esp. the new physics. Great work.
I also recently read Amit Goswami's "Physics of the Soul", he also tries to equate modern QM concepts with the tenets of the 'Tibetan Book of the Dead'. Pretty interesting although it is also pretty speculative, still. :wink: Anyway, recommendable in my view.

Together with Thomas Campbell, for me these three guys together form the spearhead of open-minded scientific theorists. (Of course, there are more!).

[astral_1976]

That is my conclusion now. Everything that belongs to the mind (be it memory or thinking capacity or subconscious processing or whatever) is actually taking place "outside" (the latter in quotation marks since it is outside of 4D / spacetime, so 'outside' does not refer to "space" as we know it).


I recommend Bohm and holographic brain theories-if you haven't seen yet. Hologrpahic universe view is getting more support and evidence each day. So in my opnion, it makes a lot of sense if memories are stored outside the brain. There are a lot of cases that classical science fail to explain the experiences of some individuals thru "memory-stored-in-brain" view.

[astral_1976]

or you're staying in the body all the time and not going anywhere during an OBE. That explains many of these complications...

so what are you suggesting that OBE is an hallucination caused within the brain?

[CFTraveler]

No, metaphysically speaking, we are mind, body and soul. Our bodies in the material sense occupy time and space, but in the subatomic state, we also occupy nonlocality, that is, there is a part of us that is everywhere at once. The OBE focuses your conscious awareness into that part of your energy that exists within this nonlocal state, and the OBE is a movement of your conscious awareness into that nonlocal state.
So your consciousness expands and 'moves' into a nonlocal state, where it can detect information from those states, and then move back into the physical state where it downloads the information into our brain, where it turns into images, sounds and feelings, and in a way into memories for us to perceive as physical input.

Or something like that.

[astral_1976]

No, metaphysically speaking, we are mind, body and soul. Our bodies in the material sense occupy time and space, but in the subatomic state, we also occupy nonlocality, that is, there is a part of us that is everywhere at once. The OBE focuses your conscious awareness into that part of your energy that exists within this nonlocal state, and the OBE is a movement of your conscious awareness into that nonlocal state.
So your consciousness expands and 'moves' into a nonlocal state, where it can detect information from those states, and then move back into the physical state where it downloads the information into our brain, where it turns into images, sounds and feelings, and in a way into memories for us to perceive as physical input.

Or something like that.

I didn't know you are into QM...I am glad to see you are..practice+theory, that is powerful. You keep impressing me...

Your theory in a way make sense...but since you are trying to explain OBE thru scientific terms, then you also need to define "conscious awareness". In your response you mentioned that but you didn't explain what it is - i.e. magnetic field, quantum information etc.
What is conscious awareness?

[CFTraveler]

I would qualify it as 'the observer', or the perceiver. I just consider it the part of me that observes, the point of view.
In QM it would be that which measures. As controversial as it is, I'll take Dr. F.A. Wolf's description (http://twm.co.nz/wolf_int.html) of it. (because I like it. :wink: )

[astral_1976]

I would qualify it as 'the observer', or the perceiver. I just consider it the part of me that observes, the point of view.
In QM it would be that which measures. As controversial as it is, I'll take Dr. F.A. Wolf's description (http://twm.co.nz/wolf_int.html) of it. (because I like it. :wink: )

Thanks CFTraveler...

I will however having hard time to accept the idea of "soul" or "observer" being the traveler in OBE.
The article you referred to me doesn't make sense (maybe I should read his full theory) but in this article he failed to explain what is the reflected vibration(soul) and how this reflection occurs, and refers to something called 'vibration' wilthout adequately explaning it. I guess somehow he tocuhes string theory but I didn't get his connections.

So in your model, the observer expands in to other states and later the 'accessed information' is downloaded into brain and the brain interprets the new data and give it a meaning by senses - like smell, touch, hear etc.

See this is actually interesting but let me turn this upside down. I always struggle with the concept of "observer" as mentioned in copenhagen school of thought. This is still a theory and I will tell you another alternative. It is called environmental reduction. See, according to copenhagen thought, the moon is not there if nobody is looking at it. Environmental reduction as suggested by Penrose argues that quantum states collapse as soon as it interacts with environment (already collapsed states). So the quantum collapse doesn't require a consciouss observer but only an adequate interaction with the environment.
So the moon is always there even nobody is looking at it.

Hameroff, takes it a step further and model this to explain consciousness. His theory, in a nutshell, argues that within Microtubilins (within neurons) there are sensors that interact with quantum information ( 1 and 0 being at the same time). When this quantum information interacts with the classical information (1 or 0) that is collected from our everyday environment by our sensory organs, making the quantum information collapse into 0 or 1 and this interaction creates the feeling of "awareness". So there is no observer in this model. Two different types of information (quantum and classical) meeting with each other and creating a consciouss experience. Consciousness is not continious and it happens 1/8 of a second.

This model to me, and for many others, is the most successful theory so far - although has recieved a lot of critism but not been able to proven wrong yet.

So how OBE occurs in this model?

Well, first of all, there is no expansion of observer or consciousness. Because there is no observer. When you have OBE, you basically tunning your brain into different frequencies and this experience allow microtubilins to collect different states of quantum information (so the tibulins as the reciever just tuned into different channels and starts gathering quantum information at different frequencies). And once the brain tuned into its regular frequency (I mean when we wake up from OBE), all downloaded quantum information during OBE clashes with the classical information (there is no observer) and we give a meaning to our OBE experience.

See, these two theories look a like but they are fundamentally different. One depends on "the observer" and the other depends on "the observed - the quantum information @ other frequencies"...

Sorry for the length of the message...but I had to let this out. Hope someone here debunk my model because I hate the idea that there is no "observer":)

[CFTraveler]

I will however having hard time to accept the idea of "soul" or "observer" being the traveler in OBE. First of all, I'm not going to debunk your exposition, because this is all theoretical and I still am not sure what permutations of these theories I subscribe to.

The article you referred to me doesn't make sense (maybe I should read his full theory) I have a pdf in which he explains more what he thinks about QM and why he describes his spirituality in these terms. Perhaps this wasn't the best link, but I didn't have time to look for something more suitable.


So in your model, the observer expands in to other states and later the 'accessed information' is downloaded into brain and the brain interprets the new data and give it a meaning by senses - like smell, touch, hear etc. The observer here being my point of view. I don't really see it as the soul, but I do see it as consciousness, whatever that is. And no, I don't know what consciousness is, I don't think it's a field, and I don't think it's energy, unlike most spiritually minded people.


See this is actually interesting but let me turn this upside down. I always struggle with the concept of "observer" as mentioned in copenhagen school of thought. This is still a theory and I will tell you another alternative. It is called environmental reduction. See, according to copenhagen thought, the moon is not there if nobody is looking at it. My understanding of Copenhagen is that it is [there], but not as particle (or object), more of a probability wave, and it's ability to exist as object has to do with being measured or observed (or interacted with.) But if it is a probability wave (as in the twin slit experiment) then it has the ability to interfere with itself, and thus, exist. I'm probably wrong about this in many ways, but this is how I look at it.


Environmental reduction as suggested by Penrose argues that quantum states collapse as soon as it interacts with environment (already collapsed states). So the quantum collapse doesn't require a consciouss observer but only an adequate interaction with the environment. Sounds somewhat like the one I was thinking of- maybe I got my theory from Penrose. To tell you the truth I've read so many versions of them that I don't remember all of them.


So the moon is always there even nobody is looking at it. Ecco. :)


Hameroff, takes it a step further and model this to explain consciousness. His theory, in a nutshell, argues that within Microtubilins (within neurons) there are sensors that interact with quantum information ( 1 and 0 being at the same time). When this quantum information interacts with the classical information (1 or 0) that is collected from our everyday environment by our sensory organs, making the quantum information collapse into 0 or 1 and this interaction creates the feeling of "awareness". You had me until the use of the word "feelings" to explain away consciousness, or self-awareness.
Our brains constantly make decisions, and these decisions are constantly affected by Quantum events, as you said, through the microtubulins, and just simply by the fact that neurons fire at the subatomic level and sometimes the rates of decay will make the difference between a neuronal discharge and not, causing changes in macro (classical) experience. But to say there is no observer is to deny the ability to receive this information and observe it in the first place- true, the physical part of what science considers consciousness to be is a side effect of brain function, but experimental information constantly shows us that decisions are being made sometimes before having the thought, and something is making the decision. So I still see the brain as an interface with whatever 'I' am, even if I don't call it 'consciousness'. Boy, it's harder to express than I thought.



So how OBE occurs in this model?
Well, first of all, there is no expansion of observer or consciousness. Because there is no observer. When you have OBE, you basically tunning your brain into different frequencies and this experience allow microtubilins to collect different states of quantum information (so the tibulins as the reciever just tuned into different channels and starts gathering quantum information at different frequencies). And once the brain tuned into its regular frequency (I mean when we wake up from OBE), all downloaded quantum information during OBE clashes with the classical information (there is no observer) and we give a meaning to our OBE experience. But it doesn't clash, and is often validated. So I'm not sure where you disagree with me, since I do agree that the brain collects and processes this information- I just don't see where the clash happens.

I have no problem with long threads but I often work with 'stream of consciousness', so forgive me if it appears if I'm arguing, I just kind of meander with the ideas as they are presented and go with it.
:)

[astral_1976]

I have no problem with long threads but I often work with 'stream of consciousness', so forgive me if it appears if I'm arguing, I just kind of meander with the ideas as they are presented and go with it.

Oh no, on the contrary! This is great! I really enjoy discussing this!


The observer here being my point of view. I don't really see it as the soul, but I do see it as consciousness, whatever that is. And no, I don't know what consciousness is, I don't think it's a field, and I don't think it's energy, unlike most spiritually minded people.

I also agree that consciousness is not a field and it is not energy. See, the best explanation- in my opinion- come from Hameroff & Penrose. I explained this but let me clarify it again. My English - my second language - sometimes is not clear.
See when two classical information interacts with each other, something happens. I think of it this way, when two hydrogen atoms and One oxygen atom interacts than they create water. So water is H20 and it is wet...Wet is wet, it is just the property of two type of information (hydorgen and oxygen) meeting with each other
Hameroff argues that when quantum information and classical information interacts with each other (in given suitable conditions) something strange happens, it creates a consciouss event. Consciousness here is just like "wetness". So what is consciousness? It is the collpase of the wave function itself. In humans, these numerous consciouss events that happen in each nanosecond are organized by brain and creates the stream of consciousness as we know it.


Our brains constantly make decisions, and these decisions are constantly affected by Quantum events, as you said, through the microtubulins, and just simply by the fact that neurons fire at the subatomic level and sometimes the rates of decay will make the difference between a neuronal discharge and not, causing changes in macro (classical) experience. But to say there is no observer is to deny the ability to receive this information and observe it in the first place- true, the physical part of what science considers consciousness to be is a side effect of brain function, but experimental information constantly shows us that decisions are being made sometimes before having the thought, and something is making the decision. So I still see the brain as an interface with whatever 'I' am, even if I don't call it 'consciousness'

See, this is the main disagreement...There is no observer...There is only information. One classical type and one quantum type. Brain is only a reciever. It collects classical data and quantum data. Brain is also a platform where these two types of information can interact with each other. And when they do, 'consciouss' experience occurs. It may be hard to grasb but this is exactly what Hameroff and Penrose suggesting. And to me, it makes a lot of sense.

During OBE:
1-I meditate, and then my brain tune into different frequencies
2-Microtubilins start to collect quantum information - there is no observer going out of the body - It is like Television, your brain changed the channel and start getting information at different frequencies .
3-When I wake up, then brain does his chemical magic and allow DOWNLOADED quantum data interact with the EXISTING classical data.
4- When quantum data interacts with classical data, quantum data collapse and consciousness occurs.
5- Brain instantly integrates all collapsed information into experience, and you got an OBE experience.


But it doesn't clash, and is often validated. So I'm not sure where you disagree with me, since I do agree that the brain collects and processes this information- I just don't see where the clash happens.


Ok, it seems they are very identical theories. But they are really different at the fundamental level.
Because I don't assume an observer. The only fundamental thing is "information" and their interaction with each other.
There is no observer to observe the information...There are only information.

wow...this is really hard to explain...lol

[Tutor]

inarguably, consciousness is simply You as you presently are. but in that consciousness is much more, even as that which is infinitely around external of your centralized aware being (epi-center/epic-enter) is much more; consciousness is an inifinite array of fields which within we secondarily all are, as well as within each...first is...all.

energy? hmmm, depends upon what any one person opinionatedly 'thinks' is "energy". but it (all in all) is spirit, polarized from within endlessly (you) to without infinitely (seeming as not you).

theo-retical science does not have to inform me that I am presently here, well...unless i am moronically seized/ceased with disbelief of myself first, as both that which querys and that which finds answer for me, within myself as I living this life, having to occasionally pinch myself for me lil ole pin headed reality check. damn that hurt...I am real... :shock: .

kudos to intellectual giddiness though... :roll:.

tim

"I can do wrong all by myself"...rightly so. :D

[CFTraveler]

Intellectual giddiness indeed....
http://chzsomuchpun.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/0da16ab3-9d20-4ddc-828d-2e4ce0e4ffe4.jpg
:)