Meditation and sleep

[shadow159]

Hi their, I've recently began to do meditation/trance on a night time, usualy just before I go to sleep (though I dont lie down) as this is mainly the only time I can practive this without being interupted.

A night or so ago I did this and found it quite hard to get to sleep right after, even though I expected myself to be tired, even before I began trance. I had a very restless nights sleep, waking up multiple times in the night, very unlike my usual sleep cycle.

Could this have anything to do with the trance/meditation as I dont want to make this mistake again and miss out on further sleep. I recall hearing that the Delta brainwave state makes up for a certain amount of sleep, though im not sure how this would interupt my sleep cycle.

Thanks for any help.

[Tom]

The material that you stir up in your subconscious mind during meditation is what is being processed in your dreams. It is a great way to make progress, if you don't mind the effect that the loss of restful sleep has. There are ways to let go of things during the day if you want to practice without losing sleep over it and the only time you have is right before bed. Going over the events of the day in reverse order, watching them as though they happened to someone else, will help to unwind them. You can do the same thing in the morning with your dreams. The thing about going in reverse order is the important thing. There is a tendency with the technique to want to stop at points and switch to going over things in forward motion. My guess is, though, that meditation before sleep will not have the same effect on your sleep every time. Some days it will stir things up and make it hard to get a restful night's sleep. Other times it might actually help you to sleep better. I find that rather than cutting back my need for sleep, the more I meditate the more sleep I need.

[shadow159]

Oh, I wasnt aware that during meditation thoughts are brought to the surface, and your mind goes though the days events, I thought everything just remained blank and it sort of gave your subconscious and conscious mind a rest.

You say allowing your thoughts to appear in your dreams will allow you to make progress. Make progress with what?

[Tom]

Going through the material at the end of the day is actually a technique that you can use to process the material from your day. It is like unwinding a cassette tape. It reduces the amount of processing you need to do in your dreams overnight, making it easier to work with your dreams.

During meditation, according to Bill Harris (His company is Centerpointe, which makes the holosync binaural program) during meditation most of the action occurs at a subconscious level. Material there is being processed and re-organized. Things get stirred up and can have an effect on your dreaming, especially if you meditate right before going to sleep. It doesn't always have quite the effect you described, but it can from time to time. It is like writing an operating system or some other huge computer application. At first, you might start out with just the basics and then you keep adding code to extend the features and patches to correct bugs as they appear. At some point you get a whole mess of code, written by a lot of different people, and it is useful to start combining sections of code to work together more effeciently. Entire sections of code can become obsolete as newer, more efficient code takes over all the functions. Your subconscious mind also has its programming and during meditation you are giving it a chance to revise its programming to work more efficiently. Often this process has to continue for a while after you finish meditating. Dreams are a great way for the subconscious mind to continue its work.

[shadow159]

I understand what you mean now. So should I the 'Reverse' technique before i begin any trance / meditation work?

[Tom]

It isn't something I bother doing, either before meditation or before going to sleep. I just brought it up as a point of interest. The more intense and weird my dreams are the happier I get.

[Matthew]

Tom brings up a good technique.

I just want to reiterate: when rewinding your day, make sure you go backwards and don't start playing the events forward again. Actually, for awhile I did this technique and would fall asleep before I rewound to the morning.

As for the meditation, what type of meditation are you doing? Are you emptying your mind of thoughts, using a mantra, etc.? This can make a difference when it's close to bedtime.

I usually do an "empty" mind technique at night... not much to it. Started it back when I read The Cloud of Unknowing- a Christian mystical text. When I really can't fall asleep, I do TM meditation. I started doing TM over twenty years ago. So, the technique might not really be any better around bedtime. It might just be that I did it for so long that I enter a deeper more relaxed state.

By the way, trance work can sometimes wind me up... I don't know why. So, I'll often do the energy and trance work first. Then, get up, walk it off, and then meditate. For some reason, this helps me get ready for snoozy-ville.

I would suggest doing the reverse technique after the trance work while you are lying in bed (again, because it often put me to sleep).

-Matthew

[shadow159]

I wasnt aware that their was a diffarence between meditation and trance. What i do is just clear my mind of all thoughts to go into a deeper state of consciousness.

I havent had recurrence of that sleep problem, and i have used the reverse technique to an extent. So hopefully it was just a one off.

Thanks

[The_Musician]

i think a trance is continuously going deeper and deeper, while a meditation is hovering in a desired deepness for a period of time. Im totally talking out of my ass, but im using what i have heard over the last two months and some experience.

[darkrealmz]

Yeah, usually when i wake up multiple times during rest it's due to recall. Your mind is in a trance hence waking you up after something has happened, i.e a dream, Astral projection etc. I sometimes get the urge to write down what happened in the experience too.

[Chris]

i think a trance is continuously going deeper and deeper, while a meditation is hovering in a desired deepness for a period of time. Im totally talking out of my ass, but im using what i have heard over the last two months and some experience.

Meditation at it's core is relaxed focused awareness. A focus is used to keep the mind clear through observance (such as a mantra, breath, visualisation, music etc). Meditation is never forcing to keep the mind clear, it's simply letting go of distractions and returning to the meditation object repeatedly. Over time the distractions become less and less. Forcing the mind clear can suppress a lot and seriously impede progress.
Trance is more a deepening state of relaxation, one can experience trance through meditation, but one doesn't need to be meditating to experience trance.
As you go deeper into trance, quite frequently you'll find your mind wanders, or gets caught up in hypnogogic scenarios. With meditation one returns to the object of meditation even with the distractions of hypnogogic hallucinations etc.

If I meditate before bed, or do some form of visualisation/consious altering technique, I find I can't sleep afterwards too.

[The_Musician]

meh i dunno... i sleep fine.. its just projection i have a hard time with. it really is hard to hover in the body/sleep mind/awake state.


and thanks for correcting me. i didnt know that.

[Aunt Clair]

i think a trance is continuously going deeper and deeper, while a meditation is hovering in a desired deepness for a period of time. Im totally talking out of my ass, .
...and what he/she said

lol , that's cool I've heard that language for years from some special people in my life so much that I reckon I am bilingual , hee hee . .. I can understand it implicitly :lol:

Meditation tends to develop in a predictable continuum . It can be quantified by the duration , the quality of visuals , the quality of auditory feed back , the ability to project within the meditation , and the level of trance .

Duration
Neophytes
may find 5 minutes keeping their mouth and their eyes closed taxing or impossible .

Aspirants
sitting at home alone should aim for 15 minutes of silence and quiet mind once they have mastered the 5 minute plateau .

Good meditators
will require a minimum of 30 minutes for a good session .

Experts
can meditate for hours at a session and can slip into trance when needed during the course of their day stealing moments away from waiting in queue time for example .

Quality of Visuals in a hierarchy from easiest to most desirable
I saw nothing but I felt peace
I saw one thing it was ___(insert indigo , blue or violet here )
I saw this symbol and it meant this to me
I saw a few things and I think it was a message
I saw an object which turned into another object and then this happened
I saw so much it is hard to recall it all , I remember three messages .
I saw a spirit and they showed me this and I think it meant that .
I saw a lot it will take me 3 paragraphs to write it up so I will read it to you when I am done , let the others go first .

Quality of Auditory Stimulus
I saw this spirit they did these things , I feel they were saying this .
I heard a voice in my head , was it my imagiination ?
I knew what the spirit was saying but I could not hear them .
I heard a name ! I think the spirit meant it was their name or
I heard someone call my name I think it was my grandmother .
I could see the spirit speaking but I only heard 2 words .
I understand that the spirit's message was this because I felt this , I saw them do this and I heard this .
I heard a few sentences this time !

Projection
Can Mentally Project Consciousness at will but falls asleep sitting up .
MPs, sees a bit and then it becomes a blur.
Can project consciousness to a place and stay within the meditation to recall their travel fully.
Can project to Astral , RTZ or 5th Plane
Can project above the 6th plane .
Can project at will to any place they have already been .
Can project with a group and see each other there .
Can project in a group and bi locate consciousness to give off ( speak about ) what they feel , see and hear there while maintaining a light trance .
Can project with a core image , a name , or a energy link of some sort to any place they wish to will .

Trance
Can not achieve a trance state of consciousness
Can achieve a light trance briefly in the middle of a 30 minute session
Can achieve a light trance in about 5 minutes
Can achieve a light trance at will
Can achieve a heavy trance , has difficulty moving limbs and returning to the body after re -entry feels disoriented can't recall anything .
Can achieve a quality session in a heavy trance and can recall the lessons taught by evoked spirits or teachers that appear
Can achieve a quality trance state immediately at will , can project and bi locate within the heavy trance and still be able to recall an hour session
Can achieve a heavy trance and can recall at will , may be able to invoke a teacher or contact higher self guardian angel , or trance mediumship where another voice projects from their own .This is a risky procedure and many will refuse to try it which is sensible .

Basically a trance state allows the quieting of the mind , the freedom from distraction to focus on the now and see the messages revealed by higher self and spirit teachers which will begin to appear spontaneously to those who sit in regular trance meditation . A trance may be induced by deep cleansing , raising full energy for your state of energy body at that time and by sitting in the power of the now . Breathing techniques are imperative to learn to slow down the breath and the pulse and to not slow it down so much as to hear a gasp for breath which will awaken self and others unfortunate enough to be in circle with you , lol . The body that sits in the power position will enter a trance easier than one who lies down as this often ends in falling asleep . Elbows on knees , chin on hands and slightly bent forward at the waist in a comfortable chair will work well . Better is to sit nearly upright the palms out and up the arms rested on the arms of a padded chair the feet slightly apart and resting squarely on the floor . These are ancient positions and they work . The 'throne ', 'warrior '. 'now' and ' power' seat are all names for similar positions .
http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/BD/D1/AscensionoftheAvatar/1/69.jpg
Here is a technique to enter trance meditation ;
http://www.astralsociety.com/as/Forum/i ... 343.0.html (http://www.astralsociety.com/as/Forum/index.php/topic,15343.0.html)

[Freawaru]

As usual I will have to disagree about the terminology. You describe trance, Aunt Clair, it has nothing to do with meditation. Meditation is not about clairvoiance or recieving visions or guidance, nor about planes or bodies, but about transcendenting the self. One primary goal is detachment (kaivalya) from the karmic self. All this spiritual devellopment and trance teaching is - for meditation - a hinderance and distraction.

When your goal and teaching is to devellop the person spiritually it is just that: devellopment of the person. It keeps the illusion that you ARE the person in the first place and even strenghthens it. Meditation on the other hand returns you to detachment from this illusion towards Liberation. All true meditational "states" are always independent of everything created and karmic. It cannot be develloped as it is eternal, unchangeable.

[FlickeringThoughts]

In my experience with meditation, (and occasionally some chakra work before I go to bed..) it hasn't lost me any sleep so far. About the only affect I have noticed is very vivid dreams. It might have something to do with I lay down when I meditate, I'm not sure. Probably deepening my brain waves as I'm laying down makes me more prone to something when I finally fall asleep, which happens quite often, when I don't mean it to. Sometimes I get so relaxed that I just snooze off. But the sleep is always good.

Kevin

[Freawaru]

Hi their, I've recently began to do meditation/trance on a night time, usualy just before I go to sleep (though I dont lie down) as this is mainly the only time I can practive this without being interupted.

A night or so ago I did this and found it quite hard to get to sleep right after, even though I expected myself to be tired, even before I began trance. I had a very restless nights sleep, waking up multiple times in the night, very unlike my usual sleep cycle.

Could this have anything to do with the trance/meditation as I dont want to make this mistake again and miss out on further sleep. I recall hearing that the Delta brainwave state makes up for a certain amount of sleep, though im not sure how this would interupt my sleep cycle.

Thanks for any help.

In my experience energy work (NEW) does relax and makes me getting into sleep more easily. It also makes the dreams more interesting and increases lucidity.

Meditation techniques on the other hand wakes me up and I stay awake for half the night. But I succeded a few times with mindfullness meditation (observing your mind while it switches from wake to sleep) but it is tricky as one needs to keep the concentration while unfocusing the mind.

I have not tried trance directly before going to bed so I do not know if this provides a problem in general. But, personally, I do not want any spirits talking to me while I want to rest, so I keep this excercise for the waking hours until I can reach the lucid dream state intentionally.

As I've said before, I disagree with everyone's distinction's between a trance and meditating. I think it's semantics. They are the same thing. Maybe this makes it more clear:
Trance = Meditate
Trancing = Meditating
Everyone's experiences are different. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me on this. I just thought I'd put it out there. Many of you are going by what you are experiencing personally. Many are going by what they've been taught. I am going by what I was taught, experience for myself, and what I understand my clients are experiencing as a hypnotherapist from their descriptions. I work with varied people every day, teach them "self-hypnosis/meditation". Then, they report back to me their experiences. I see absolutely no differences between trance and meditate. They have similar experiences no matter what I call it.

When they slap an EEG on you, the paper chart generated doesn't differentiate between terminologies. It differentiates the different levels of consciousness. The brain does not care what you call it, it just does it. This measure is OBJECTIVE.

The way you interpret what you are experiencing is SUBJECTIVE. Thus, the differing uses of terminology. Now, some may say that the brain is different from the soul. Yes, the physical brain is an objective, physical organ. But, no one has discovered where consciousness lies in the human body. Many believe it does not even lie in the human body. So, I will use the term "mind" to equate with the terms "spirit" and "soul", although, undoubtedly, some will disagree with this. So, I ask you, what is mind then? An EEG is measuring what the neurons in the brain are doing as they are firing. This is physical. But, it is also giving us a clue as to what the mind/spirit/soul are doing on a physical level. An EEG cannot "see" into your mind and know what you are experiencing subjectively. But, it has been used to measure people in trance or meditation, and there are no differences in the patterns of consciousness.

Ooo, after re-reading that, I sound like I know what I'm talking about. :lol: But, the truth of the matter is that I believe that the terminology is decribing the same phenomenum. The word "meditate" came from the East, and the word "trance" came from the West. Old versus new. We, as humans, always like to rename things and imagine that we've dreamed up something new.

[darkrealmz]

[quote="The_Musician":38x1prvu]i think a trance is continuously going deeper and deeper, while a meditation is hovering in a desired deepness for a period of time. Im totally talking out of my ass, .
...and what he/she said

Meditation tends to develop in a predictable continuum . It can be quantified by the duration , the quality of visuals , the quality of auditory feed back , the ability to project within the meditation , and the level of trance .

Duration
Neophytes
may find 5 minutes keeping their mouth and their eyes closed taxing or impossible .
[/quote:38x1prvu]
I'm a neophyte, and i managed it for 4 hours:) Yet my lack of concentration increased with the physical plane as time passed. I got the old pins and needles, it was hurting me to remain stationary, But as for my stomach, face, legs; all except the feet and hands were deeply relaxed.
I simply could not move and i felt weighed down by a ton of bricks. I think this is what should happen, however i felt i couldn't sustain it. I will try again, hopefully falling asleep.

[enoch]

I always thought trance was the total elimination of thought and meditation was one-point focus. Maybe not.

Hi Enoch,
If trance was the elimination of thought, then hypnotherapists would be out of business! :D That is the terminology most use, and clients have to be actively experiencing and communicating with the hypnotherapist for a successful session.

[enoch]

So how do I interpret RBs excerises on entering the trance state in AD? Or are there different definitions?

Trance is just another word for "focused attention" in an altered state of consciousness. I think everyone is getting too hung up on terminology. Do what works for you. It doesn't matter if you are focusing on a word, on nothing, or some visual that gets you to a relaxed state. The relaxed state is what's important in hypnotherapy or in astral traveling. How you get there is a very personal choice and of little importance. That's one reason that in hypnotherapy you can find thousands of different CD's with all different kinds of techniques to calm you. Anxiety is one of the biggest things that people come to hypnotherapy for. It also seems to be at the root of many problems. And, that's a huge reason why people can't relax. I think that getting hung up on the terminology is just another anxiety increaser, and is not necessary. Call it whatever you want that makes you happy. Just make sure it gets you to the relaxed state.

[enoch]

Have you read AD, PHG?

Almost through it. Enoch, would you mind posting the pages that you are referring to. I skimmed through a lot of Part 1 as most of the info I had already learned and practiced through RB's tutorials and other teacher's books. I'm not sure what that has to do with varying definitions of trance. No one is the final authority on it or anything.

[Freawaru]

Hi Patty,

I have started a thread on meditation on the "Devellopment" forum. Maybe it will clarify my position that trance and meditation/contemplation are different.... :-)

I already read it, Freawaru. I found it interesting, but it had the opposite effect on me than what I think you were trying to have me understand. When comparing the various "altered states", the Buddhists and Hindus can't even come to an agreement. The varying degrees of consciousness are given different titles and meanings, with various nuances. I've done some research on this subject because of the altered states that I have reached.

I've come to a point where I prefer to wing it than name it. In other words, I'm into the experience, not trying to define or categorize it. I recognize that defining is important to a lot of people. And, I respect that. When I offer my thoughts on a subject, that's all it is...my thoughts. I don't pretend to have the answers, but I also don't think anyone else has the answers. People often try to make their experience "fit" with something someone else has described. We are all unique and it makes me sad to see people trying to reach something that someone else has described as the ultimate or best way to experience it. It all goes back to the competition to see who is the most enlightened. And, my personal thoughts are that competition is not good for the soul.

Freawaru said:

As usual I will have to disagree about the terminology. You describe trance, Aunt Clair, it has nothing to do with meditation. Meditation is not about clairvoiance or recieving visions or guidance, nor about planes or bodies, but about transcendenting the self. One primary goal is detachment (kaivalya) from the karmic self. All this spiritual devellopment and trance teaching is - for meditation - a hinderance and distraction.

When your goal and teaching is to devellop the person spiritually it is just that: devellopment of the person. It keeps the illusion that you ARE the person in the first place and even strenghthens it. Meditation on the other hand returns you to detachment from this illusion towards Liberation. All true meditational "states" are always independent of everything created and karmic. It cannot be develloped as it is eternal, unchangeable.
I think that both of these are important for advancement of the soul. We are here to experience and develop spiritually as humans. Aunt Clair gave a very good definition of what that is all about. Detachment from the illusion helps us in understanding what the soul really is. For me, both are personal goals and important. If a person chooses to live completely for the body, materialism and denial of the soul are the traps you can fall in to. On the other hand, spending vast amounts of time in the detached state can lead a person to missing the whole reason we are here...we are God experiencing. As in all things, a balance is important.

[stargazer]

Thanks all for contributing to this thread, this has made for some great reading... I'm new to meditation/trancework and have been trying to make it a daily thing. I am not interested in meditation as an end unto itself, but as a vehicle to do other work... clairvoyance, more intense energy work, core image removal, AP/phasing. As a neophyte it's very challenging to know if you're making progress or not, but I figure I'll keep doing it daily til it's second nature. It's also hard way back down here at the bottom of the mountain to imagine what some of the higher gradients are like, i.e. with clairvoyance to make the bridge between seeing black behind your eyes and seeing full color visions. What do the inbetween gradients look like? How to know you're on the right path? etc?? My book on clairvoyance says that at first it will be darkness behind your eyes, and that with time that will change. (And it doesn't go into much detail about how / how long, it just says it will change) Then it goes into exercises with changing your vision screen different colors, red, white, green, blue, etc. It's grasping the inbetweens that I find challenging because it's not like there's a MAP-like manual to tell you you're on the right path. I'm just going to keep practicing, practicing, practicing and hope that some of the more advanced stuff makes sense as it occurs, rather than worry about how it will eventually manifest, it in advance. It's just so easy to fall prey to the doubtful mind that says "Clairvoyance? Inner guided meditations to a medicine place? Pfft! Never seen it before, why would you see it now!"

My only time for meditation is unfortunately at night as well, but I've found that it enhances my sleep. It's just easier unfortunately to fall asleep while meditating, so I've taken to sitting up so that if I fall asleep too deeply, I jerk back awake, because the trance-like naps aren't doing anything for me but making me want to get up and go to bed.

In Aunt Clair's lovely breakdown (Thank you)

Aspirants - Have no problem keeping conscious mind quiet, it's staying awake that's the problem. And lately, hypnagogic voices are so chatty!
Can enjoy a good half hour of meditation that flies by.

Quality of Visuals -
I saw one thing it was indigo and green. Shape of an eye. Comes up quite often.

Quality of Auditory Stimulus
I heard a voice in my head , was it my imagiination ?

Trance
Can achieve a light trance briefly in the middle of a 30 minute session

Last night was a good session. I was able to get comfortable and relaxed very quickly. I did some RB mental falling techniques and took a passive approach, where if a thought entered my mind, I'd idly let it pass. Before long, I found myself wavering back and forth between a "lighter" and "darker" state, that is.. I'd flash into a lighter state where the darkness behind my eyes seemed lighter and I was aware of the room, and realize that I had just flipped out of a darker state, where I had almost zero body and room awareness and was meandering down some thought path I wasn't in control of. The darker state is very nice, it's a very comfy, close, dark, introspective "inward focused" state, but it's also fairly close to falling asleep and harder to control or be aware of.

I was in a lighter state and became aware of hypnagogic / thought echo-like voices, and BOY were they chatty!!! I take it as what'll be my next challenge, to get those chattery voices under control. (See because if I let them chat away or start paying too close attention to what they're saying, I fall asleep.) I'm very interested in that particular state... awake but hearing the hypnagogic voices. What was interesting too was that they seemed locational... at one point, a male voice located at my left (that in my dreamy state thought was my boyfriend sitting next to me), moved off and away from me. I had the funny thought at that point of realizing that I was meditating alone. Like "OH that's right, I'm meditating here in the bedroom by myself!" It took the "male presence" on my left moving away from me to make me have this realization. As if I had flipped between, "I'm alone and it's funny to feel as if I'm in a group of people" and to a new half-asleep mentality of "I'm in a group of people and it's funny to feel as if I'm alone." I do not yet ascribe any importance to the group feeling, because the hypnagogic voices (at least in the beginning) are just as likely to be snippets and echoes from my day; voices of my co-workers, etc.

At this point, my body was very heavy and comfortable, and I did actually flick off into a dream, where I was sitting with a group of monks who were singing and playing drums, and I wasn't singing their chant which was too complicated but rather the "Rah Mah" chant which is a chant for raising the positive energy in an environment, to go along with the drums. Flicker back awake. Feel as if I'm done, and see that more than 30 minutes have passed. Get up and go to bed, and lie in bed feeling pretty awake.

Did the "change color of visual screen" beginners' clairvoyance exercise, in a "fake it til you make it mentality." Well, got a dot! And the dot would happily change colors for me. It's a start. Also caught a quick glimpse of a scrim of sky that was more like a "sense of a scrim of sky" than it was actual sky, but close enough to the "eyes wide shut" feeling I've had with a few accidental remote viewings while asleep that I'll call it a good bit of progress.

[Freawaru]

I already read it, Freawaru. I found it interesting, but it had the opposite effect on me than what I think you were trying to have me understand.


Ah, okay, lol. I see I have to work on my writing style ;-)



When comparing the various "altered states", the Buddhists and Hindus can't even come to an agreement. The varying degrees of consciousness are given different titles and meanings, with various nuances. I've done some research on this subject because of the altered states that I have reached.


Yes, I found the same. It even starts with colors of the chakras and auras. I think this is the result of images. There are universal symbols (I mean for all humans) and personal symbols. Altered states are percieved through the mind and it's symbols and images. Thus the same "program" will appear in trance according to ones beliefs, Christians see angels and Buddhists see daikinis and American shamans deceased relatives (and they really have a problem with me as I am not religious ;-) ).

But that changes when one reaches the unaltered state, the original one. Sunnata is identical in Buddhism and Hinduism and Christianity. See for example Meister Eckhart's sermon (and he lived in 13th century, no connection to Asia)

http://www.omalpha.com/jardin/meckhart52-imp.html

All Hindu and Buddhist I talked to so far agree that this spiritual Poverty is indeed sunnata, voidness. And it was this sermon that opened me to Christian mysticsm.



I've come to a point where I prefer to wing it than name it. In other words, I'm into the experience, not trying to define or categorize it.


A good devellopment, but how can you then talk about it? ;-)



We are all unique and it makes me sad to see people trying to reach something that someone else has described as the ultimate or best way to experience it.


Yes, this is typical for people well develloped in trance. I have heard it a lot.



It all goes back to the competition to see who is the most enlightened. And, my personal thoughts are that competition is not good for the soul.


See, that is what I mean. You have come to this conclusion by develloping the trance states. You get what you give and all that. People who are into meditation do not talk about this kind of things. Competition or the "program" of ambition provides no problem to me any more. I can cut it of (and I have to, for samadhi) or I can observe it in a detached, mindfull way. It is easy to recognize what kind of practice someone does by the results and by what opinion one has.

When you meditate ambition can be a good thing at the beginning. I recall that I was ambitious to get into trance and OBE and pyschic abilities. But for samadhi you have to let ambition go, if only for the session. In my case it vanished for years, though. Other emotions, fear and anger, for example vanished for some months - until I called them back.

It is possible to feel emotions in trance states but not in samatha meditation.



I think that both of these are important for advancement of the soul.


BOTH, indeed!



We are here to experience and develop spiritually as humans.


Agreed, it is a Game.



Detachment from the illusion helps us in understanding what the soul really is. For me, both are personal goals and important.


For me only trance is a personal goal. (Meditation is impersonal). And I call upon my little demon ambition to reach it...



If a person chooses to live completely for the body, materialism and denial of the soul are the traps you can fall in to. On the other hand, spending vast amounts of time in the detached state can lead a person to missing the whole reason we are here...we are God experiencing. As in all things, a balance is important.

Balance it is :-D

[Freawaru]

Last night was a good session. I was able to get comfortable and relaxed very quickly. I did some RB mental falling techniques and took a passive approach, where if a thought entered my mind, I'd idly let it pass. Before long, I found myself wavering back and forth between a "lighter" and "darker" state, that is.. I'd flash into a lighter state where the darkness behind my eyes seemed lighter and I was aware of the room, and realize that I had just flipped out of a darker state, where I had almost zero body and room awareness and was meandering down some thought path I wasn't in control of. The darker state is very nice, it's a very comfy, close, dark, introspective "inward focused" state, but it's also fairly close to falling asleep and harder to control or be aware of.

Your "dark state" sounds a lot like what I experience when either crossing fromj sleep to wake or vice versa. I printed an experience here:

http://forums.astraldynamics.com/viewtopic.php?t=2428

In my experience this state is easy to control when I am not low on sleep. When I am still tired and enter it I simply try to fall asleep again. I am not yet sure what kind of trance it is but I think it might come in handy in crossing over into sleep and dream lucidly.

[Aunt Clair]

As usual I will have to disagree about the terminology. You describe trance, Aunt Clair, it has nothing to do with meditation.
Perhaps it is your English here Freewaru . But are you implying that trance has nothing to do with meditation ? If so you are mistaken , if not please be more precise in your attempts at critical commentary , thank you .

Meditation is not about clairvoiance or recieving visions or guidance, nor about planes or bodies, but about transcendenting the self.
This is your opinion but it is not a truth . Meditation is most certainly about clairvoyance and receiving visions . If this is not the case for you then you may lack the motivation , the energy , the interest , the aptitude or the skills . Everyone can attain these skills .They develop in a continuum .If your meditation consists of nothingness ,then you need to go beyond that state . The planes were authored by the Godhead for humans to travel to so that we might learn to better ourselves ,our condition and each other . Sitting in nothingness is futile , puerile and senseless . One might as well stop existing , it would have the same effect .

One primary goal is detachment (kaivalya) from the karmic self. All this spiritual devellopment and trance teaching is - for meditation - a hinderance and distraction.
Again this is your opinion . I have found that spiritual development and trance meditation has helped me and my mates in alchemy circle to achieve the Lesser Work , the Great Work , the completion of the Emerald Tablet and the continued development of the human energy body . We have completed the RHP and the LHP and now I am pioneering now upon the Middle Pillar Path where no alchemist has gone before me . I do not find this path worthless . We are finding release from karmic debts and we are finding our paths worthwhile . Your own meanderings, on the otherhand ,seem to make you skeptical , cynical and derisive . I cannot think that this path of yours has helped you to attain samadhi. Since you write that you have not attained skills and your demeanor suggests that you have not attained bliss , I feel that your path has not been worthwhile to you . I have seen and communicated with Buddha and the Christ . I have travelled with them to Shamballah and learned in their presence with my mates .These are the blessings of clairvoyant communication in meditative trance . These are the irreplaceable and priceless treasures of my life . Anyone can do this . Why should they sit and blank their minds out instead . That eliminates stress for a while but it does not teach you anything at all . I am working , I am trying . I am not hitting the reset button on the video game of my life and sitting in the dark .

"You may lead or you may follow ,or you must just get out of the way", said the mother duck to her ducklings . You are doing nothing here in this style of posting . You are not leading .You are not following .You are merely ridiculing an ancient method and using this angst to attack me personally . It does not do any good to teach people to sit and contemplate their navel and the illusion of their state of being . Why not try to aspire to greater things ? This is my aim . What is yours in writing to me as you do ?

When your goal and teaching is to devellop the person spiritually it is just that: devellopment of the person. It keeps the illusion that you ARE the person in the first place and even strenghthens it.
I disagree antithetically with your persuasion herein. Alchemy is an ancient art studied by great minds . It is a hope for humanity to raise the vibration of base man . Sitting upon a pillow thinking of nothingness is the auto eroticism that Ratzinger harbinged on about , it gives meditation a bad name .

Meditation on the other hand returns you to detachment from this illusion towards Liberation. All true meditational "states" are always independent of everything created and karmic. It cannot be develloped as it is eternal, unchangeable.
Truer meditation does not exist in zoning out but in going deeper within .
You cannot win the game by trying to pretend that it is not there anymore .

[Freawaru]

Oh dear,

Aunt Clair, I did not say that trance and altered states are wrong. Nor do I think so. Fact is, I came here to these forums to learn trance and altered states. I have a practice of meditation for twenty years and it is quite different from trance. I would not need to be here on this forum if they were identical cause I would know enough to go on by myself.

All I disagree with is that trance and meditation are identical. There is trance mysticsm and contemplative mysticsm, that these are two different branches says it all in my opinion. You find the same in Buddhism and Hinduism.



Late in life, Saint Teresa de Avila came to an experience of God which was permanent and independent of trance. She called it spiritual marriage and says it was occasioned by an "intellectual vision.

http://here-and-now.org/VSI/Articles/Th ... %20insight (http://here-and-now.org/VSI/Articles/TheoryMed/theoryHow.htm#Liberating%20insight)



One of the major mistakes which is made is that Samadhi is confused with a state of trance. These are two different things. Trance is a state of consciousness in which you float between dreaming and being awake. It means that you are very relaxed and it feels very pleasant. That is a positive thing in itself. It can release stress and decrease psychosomatic diseases. I’m not saying that there is anything wrong with this state of trance. But it must not be confused with Samadhi.

http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Ar ... wolf21.htm (http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Interviews/wolf21.htm)

if you read my thread "meditation" and the quote from a Tibetan Buddhism point of view you can see that Buddhism as well sees a difference between trance and meditation. I am using the international and interreligious definitions. If you call meditation "trance", how do you call the dhyana and vipassana states?

Frankly, I do not see why you and some others here make such a fuss about it. Why is it so hard to accept that there is a difference between the two?

Freawaru,
You are making a fuss. You are continuing to try to MAKE people see it your way. There is no ultimate correct way to do anything. All paths are valuable. Aunt Clair has a unique and very interesting path that she is on that she likes to share with others. You have a unique path that you are on. Share it with others, but don't believe that you have the ultimate knowledge. None of us do. If we did, we wouldn't be sitting here in the flesh on earth. This is all about experiencing. On any path you choose.

You may state what you believe, but at this point, you need to stop quoting other people and then pointing out where they are wrong. Leave out the little white boxes and just state your *personal path* and let others state theirs. No more arguing...JUST STATE how it is for you.

[Freawaru]

Okay, Patty, I will try it your way and see where it leads to...

[Freawaru]

Aunt Clair,

I feel, personally, hurt by your words of my path not being valuable. I believe you when you speak about your experiences and in return I am also hurt learning that you doubt mine and disregard my word as a lie. I know samadhi and I know bliss. The path that walks through me, the Direct Path, is as acient as your path and I feel hurt that you attack it so much.

[Aunt Clair]

I am sorry Freawaru that my words offended you and I apologise to anyone else who was offended by my post on this thread .

Accordingly , I am editing this post . Thank you for your patience moderators especially Painterhypnogirl et al .

Everyone has eyes and they should use them . Every human can develop clairvoyance and projection . Everyone has a light within them and it should shine as brightly as possible . I feel that Meditation is about recieving messages .Visions and Realms are meant to be seen . Wings are manifested for projecting . Why would anyone cover their eyes and have their wings clipped to sit in darkness and hear nothing ? But all paths lead to God .

I am locking this thread for the moment. I have received pm's regarding this thread, and I need the other moderator's opinions. I will probably reopen it when I've heard from them. Please bear with me, and I'm sorry for doing this, but I feel it is necessary.

Aunt Clair has apologized, and I am unlocking this thread. Once again to all, please state your belief and leave out any personal remarks. Everyone has something interesting to say that can help all of us learn more. Just remember that we are on different paths, and, as Aunt Clair always says, "All paths lead to God".

[Vic Sage]

I have found infinite value in the mind-blanking void "nothingness" type of meditation (which is the most accurate way I can describe it).

It's an active method to connect to infinite peace, understanding, and unconditional love -- a tangible sense of connection to everything, including the Creator and all of His infinite manifestations. It's conscious, but it's certainly not logical or rational.

The mind stops thinking, and as a result, it steps out of your way. It's because of this that I've been able to experience just how fully and completely fear, mistrust, misunderstanding, hate, and virtually ALL of the problems in my life are of my own creation. I have no idea whether or not it involves the raising of our vibration, but I can imagine a day when everyone in the world experiences this, and wouldn't that be loverly?

In addition, because I stop thinking and obsessing and trying to figure everything out, and because of the absence of fear (and the subsequent unconditional and endless love, laughter and joy that rushes in to fill that absence), I'm able to trust in the divine order. Anxiety disappears because I'm no longer afraid that I have to compete against other human beings, and as I interact with those human beings who ARE afraid, and who DO throw at me grief, anger, and the venom of hatred, I can effortlessly withstand the tide from a position of love and understanding. It is because I know I'm connected to them, that we are all manifestations of God.

I completely and wholeheartedly believe that this is a method of achieving oneness with God, and at no point would I call what I've experienced darkness, mediocrity, complacency, or an acceptance of failure. Perhaps I would call it acceptance of success.

I just have an unshakable knowing in my heart that the Creator will provide whatever I need -- and because of that knowing, I'm unafraid to give what I have to those who need it more, because the universe is endless and its resources are abundant. Boundless.

I don't find anything in Robert's writings on the exploration of the Astral that contradicts or invalidates any of this -- nor do I find it in what I've read of Aunt Clair's work. In my own opinion, it all points back to an infinite universe of endless supply where anything and everything is possible -- in the higher planes as well as our current physical one. The only obstacle to accomplishing anything and everything, the only source of our problems, are our own beliefs about what we can do and what we expect to find.

From what I've read, it seems that what I'm describing fits the definition of Tao (although, of course, the Tao that can be described is not the TRUE Tao -- but I've gotten as close as I feel words will allow), while most of what I've read on this forum tends toward a sort of Hermetic, Golden Dawn, ritual-based type of approach.

Wisdom versus Knowledge. For those of you who haven't read the Tao te Ching, there's even a passage that says, "One who seeks knowledge learns something new every day. One who seeks the Tao unlearns something new every day."

I'm personally fascinated by both approaches, and assume that both paths lead back to God.

Perhaps Ka really is a wheel.

But my own past experiences overwhelmingly favor the path of Wisdom, the path of unlearning -- that's just what I've been successful with -- and it's because of this that I wish to see how all of those experiences on one path affect my journey down the other, if that makes any sense. Just as we all have something to learn from each other and to teach each other, I have come here to share what I have to those who need it, and to learn (or, in some instances, unlearn) with the help of all of you.

Aunt Clair -- you and I have discussed these sorts of things (briefly or at length, depending upon your perspective) via PM, and I recognize you as an expert on that path of Knowledge, which is why I always look forward to talking with you so much. I'm not interested in who is wrong or right, or even in the discovery of "The One True Path" (TM) -- I'm interested in listening to what you have to say and learning what you have to teach, and allowing it to shape and inform what I already know via my own experiences to be true, because I'm certain it can be done and that the results will be extremely interesting (at least for me).

In the event that my newly-installed copy of MSN Messenger remains riddled with fatal bugs and errors, I hope to talk to you one day soon in the chatroom on your Spiritual Reading Room webspace. :wink:

Best,

Vic

[Aunt Clair]

Fair enough Vic and thank you for your words of mediation and conciliation . There are many paths and I should never have vented or espoused otherwise . I do actually agree with the premise which you have so eloquently put forth . I was just venting . I wrote what I did not truly mean . My lack of congeniality was abominable for which I am heartily embaressed . There is no excuse for intolerance and I am truly sorry for posting a tirade .

Freawaru , I am exceptionally sorry for not turning the other cheek and I am sorry for venting at you . I should not have taken your criticism to heart . It only demonstrated failure on my part to react instead of taking more time to reflect. I will absent myself for a while from AD and work on some more mundane and less spiritual ventures until I might heal up a bit . I have not been well .But that is no excuse .

And so I ask you all to forgive me ,please.

[CFTraveler]

All the Hands that touch you are the Loving Hands of God.
I hope you feel better soon, we'll be waiting.

[Freawaru]

Dear Aunt Clair,

I am truely sorry to have given so much pain to you. It was not my intention and I appologize with all my heart.

I second everything Vic said. His path, he calls it "unlearning" is the path I have been walking for more than twenty years now and my experiences and insights agree with what he describes. And just like him I do not see the Hermetic path and the Wisdom Path as mutually exclusive but as completing each other. This is why I started to become curious and learn about the Hermetic Path a few years ago and why I joined this forum. I have learned a lot from you about the Hermetic Path and I thank you for it.



Everyone has eyes and they should use them . Every human can develop clairvoyance and projection . Everyone has a light within them and it should shine as brightly as possible . I feel that Meditation is about recieving messages .Visions and Realms are meant to be seen . Wings are manifested for projecting . Why would anyone cover their eyes and have their wings clipped to sit in darkness and hear nothing ? But all paths lead to God .

I agree wholeheartedly to all you wrote - except that for me meditation is describing states of what Vic calls the Wisdom Path. Robert Bruce calls a technique that can easily lead to the Wisdom Path "taming the mind". He described it in Astral Dynamics as "thought control". This thought control had been my starting point more than twenty years ago (I had found it on my own) and lead me to my experiences. So for me meditation is about taming the mind and the Wisdom Path while trance is about recieving visions and learning to fly and the Hermetic Path.

I hope you will feel better soon.

[Freawaru]

After a second read I do not second everything Vic wrote after all. I exclude the last two paragraphs - obviously ;-)

Aunt Clair, please do not be too harsh to yourself. After all it is my fault, too. I should have realized I hurt you and stopped pressing the point. I only realized what happend when it was too late already. I hope it will never happen again.

[Vic Sage]

And just like him I do not see the Hermetic path and the Wisdom Path as mutually exclusive but as completing each other. This is why I started to become curious and learn about the Hermetic Path a few years ago and why I joined this forum.

In light of Aunt Clair's much-deserved sabbatical, I think this is a point that is very important to remember.

I can easily understand how a break from one's community -- especially when that community is an internet forum, where opinions are usually much stronger, tensions usually run much higher, and confrontation often seems inevitable -- could be exactly the kind of vacation one needs for perspective and healing on all levels of the self. In fact, in today's capitalist society, driven by fear of material loss, it's all too easy to get caught up in the Us vs. Them attitude, and solitude is often the healthiest thing a person can give themselves.

However -- as we've all already established, Aunt Clair, I think it's clear that this community has acknowledged you as one of its foremost experts. You have done things and gone places that many of us can scarcely dream of, and many of us yearn to explore that same territory.

From eight or so centuries into the past, St. Francis of Assisi reminds us that it is in giving that we receive. Aunt Clair -- I would suggest the possibility that there are great opportunities for you to give here within this community, and so there are also great opportunities for you to receive.

So, with both sides of the coin revealed -- by all means, Aunt Clair, go where your heart takes you. Do what you must do, and continue doing it until you are well. We are with you.

Best,

Vic

[bronwyn]

Be healed.


Spirit led me to come in here and say that.


It could be for ALL of us.


Much love.

[/b]