barriers to expanding consciousness

[sleeper]

i've been writing today (almost 4 pages worth) about something that's been bugging me for a while. I haven't shared it with anyone. But it really concerns me in a lot of ways for a lot of reasons.

basically it's this: i'm concerned about future generations of children (and adults) being able to find their way to the spiritual path. Movies, cartoons, video games and more are using (abusing, IMHO) spiritual language in their fantasy-world entertainment-media and it's "poisoning the well" of spiritual knowledge. it's not only blurring the distinction between fantasy and reality, but I expect it to also make spiritual attainment seem like a delusional fantasy. In other words, people who are raised on cartoon-media are being predictively programmed to dismiss things like "chakras" and "spirits" and "avatars" as cartoon-media nonsense. so a rational person who seeks spiritual truth will have a convoluted conception of what spiritual truth is and will dismiss real spiritual truth out of hand.

a couple good examples are the kids who join various forums and demand that they be taught how to gain psi powers now, or the kids that advertise them as spiritual warriors, etc.

does anyone else feel this way? i'm feeling the waters before jumping in, so to speak.

[wstein]

I doubt they are doing any more damage than religion has in the past.

[ButterflyWoman]

There are always barriers. If it's not one thing, it's another, but awareness happens no matter what barriers and stumbling blocks are theoretically in the way (but there actually are none; Consciousness is All, so any barrier or block is generated by Awareness, anyway).

[Tutor]

:wink:

[CFTraveler]

I agree what everyone has said in principle.
If you look back at history, you'll see that the stuff we talk about is nothing new under the sun, it has been talked about and 'discovered' time and time again, and given different names by the cultures that came upon these ideas.
The natural progression seems to be as following:
Ideas are 'discovered', explored, shown to produce x result.
They are then shared and used by a given group.
They become popular, and organized, until they turn into a religion or discipline.
The religion subverts these ideas and uses them for social purposes.
They become 'lost', 'occult (hidden)' or simply forgotten.
Back to square one, the next group or culture 'discovers' them.

What's different now is that mainstream culture is now being exposed to these ideas when in the past they were usually cultivated by a smaller group. And as usual, these ideas are being subverted by different groups for different purposes- so nowadays the mainstream culture is doing what religion used to do, so instead of becoming 'hidden' for fear of harm, they are becoming 'hidden' for fear of ridicule- but the result is the same, eventual undergrounding.
What comes next is possibly new- because when most people are exposed to ideas that possibly liberate their minds (I said possibly), then the collective consciousness may be changed, making for a very interesting future; Maybe.

So cheers, you were born at the right time.
-----------

[Tutor]

:wink:

[Tutor]

:wink:

[sleeper]

I doubt they are doing any more damage than religion has in the past.

that's a good point. in this post i have been talking about cartoon media and how it might impact the future, however, i'm much more interested in other words and phrases and how they have impacted the past.

for instance, how do we know what the words celestial, heavenly, heaven, above, ascendance originally meant? obviously they could be referring to myriad of things. the word firmament is also very intriguing to me.

i'm also concerned with the weird conclusions that are extrapolated from modern memes such as "i am pure consciousness therefore i dont' exist." etc.


There are always barriers. If it's not one thing, it's another, but awareness happens no matter what barriers and stumbling blocks are theoretically in the way (but there actually are none; Consciousness is All, so any barrier or block is generated by Awareness, anyway).

yes but awareness isn't what needs transformation or enlightenment - it's the physical mind/body that does. the physical mind/body needs to attain high levels of realisation, then through effort, become liberated from the illusion/maya/samsara of the world by the illumination of the father-aspect of our soul. so i do declare that there are physical barriers and they are important to the transformation and realization of the human being.



i notice when i look in the mirror, that the birthmark on my left wrist is on my right hand. so, if we set the whole wide mediated world before such a mirror, we might see that the 'birth marks' of culture/ethnicity/race/religion/philo/politic are all changing hand.
tim
That's exactly what i'm concerned with: the world is not what is appears to be. As terrence mckenna said: (forgive me if i get the quote wrong, it's from memory) "the world is not only stranger than you imagine but it's stranger than you can imagine." furthermore, i want myself and others to see the world as it is. not it's reflection, not it's inverse, not it's appearance but as it is.


And as usual, these ideas are being subverted by different groups for different purposes- so nowadays the mainstream culture is doing what religion used to do, so instead of becoming 'hidden' for fear of harm, they are becoming 'hidden' for fear of ridicule- but the result is the same, eventual undergrounding.
What comes next is possibly new- because when most people are exposed to ideas that possibly liberate their minds (I said possibly), then the collective consciousness may be changed, making for a very interesting future; Maybe.

So cheers, you were born at the right time.
-----------

I'm definitely optimistic about the exposure of previously occult concepts. but i'm having difficulty summating my concerns here...

iv'e been journaling about this for a few days and i'd like to you to read it.

evaluate it honestly but please dont' lambast me too much, considering it's my personal journal entry and it's a work in progress (incomplete). it might look like an article but it's really just how i journal.

[sleeper]

Semantical signifiers as lexiconic barriers to communication.
And
Conceptual framework as the mechanism of contextual comprehension.
In other words:
How do you know if your audience understands what you mean when you say it?
Or
Pragmatics.

I’m troubled by what I see as a trend; the obscuring of the valuable meaning of valuable words and also adds worthless meaning to the same words. In other words, it is our experiences that contribute to our conceptual framework that we use to translate what we see and hear; translate that into something coherent.

So many people from diverse backgrounds are flocking to spiritual knowledge that I should feel enthusiastic; spiritual seeking is a good thing, however, I’m concerned about the magnitude of the misunderstandings and proclamations that are occurring today. Even though diverse groups flocking to spirituality use much of the same language, they generally mean much different things when they use them and that is contributing overall to a contamination of spiritual knowledge which does not portend well for future generations.

Spiritual knowledge has been garnished from thousands of years of hard work and preserved in multi-cultural texts, traditions and by discipleship. Now that we are technologically capable of widely disseminating this information, it should be properly done – humanity has the resources to do it. Why, instead, humanity chooses to create mindless entertainment – I don’t know. But I do know that at the pace the spiritual contamination is going, future generations will have trouble distinguishing truth from fantasy.

Not convinced? Then take a look at this:
Naruto is a is an fictional ongoing Japanese manga series (anime, manga, movies, card game and video game) about a young ninja. Here is an excerpt from narutopedia, regarding naruto lore:

Chakra (�ャクラ, chakura) is essential to even the most basic jutsu; it is a mixture of the physical energy present in every cell of the body and the spiritual energy gained from exercise and experience. Once mixed, it can be channeled through the chakra circulatory system, which is to chakra as the regular circulatory system is to blood, to any of the 361 chakra points (called tenketsu) in the body. Through various methods, the most common of which is hand seals, the chakra can then be manipulated to create an effect that would not be possible otherwise, such as walking on water.

Here is some non-fiction; excerpts from Wikipedia’s chakra page:

“The Chakras are said to be "force centers" or whorls of energy permeating, from a point on the physical body, the layers of the subtle bodies in an ever-increasing fan-shaped formation. Rotating vortices of subtle matter, they are considered the focal points for the reception and transmission of energies.�

“The central role of the chakras in this model is the raising of Kundalini, where it pierces the various centers, causing various levels of realisation and resulting in the obtention of various siddhis or occult powers, until reaching the crown of the head, resulting in union with the Divine.�

One excerpt is fantasy, one reality How do you know which one is which? How would a Naruto fan distinguish the two?

If you were a gamer, how would you tell the difference between a gamer-fan-website, and an astral projection website? An anime-avatar website and a kundalini website?

Try to answer those questions before reading on. It is our responsibility as adults to create a suitable intellectual environment for future generations.

Of course, to the layperson, both excerpts seem equal in regards to believability and strangeness, fantasy and pragmatism, in their likelihood to empower and in their likelihood to be a total waste of time. To the gamer, meditation is a waste and gaming is a worthy pursuit. To the truth seeker, the inverse is true. But how is the truth seeker to recognize the spiritual path if, at a young age, they began systematic predictive-programming that prevent them from recognizing it?

Spiritual practice is the only liberation from the entrapments of illusion, maya, samsara. If liberation appears to be a childish game, then what truth seeker would choose liberation? In other words, if one doesn’t’ believe in Santa clause, doesn’t believe in Naruto, why should one believe in Chakras and therefore pursue enlightenment?

Spiritual teachings are a blessing from the learned elders of our past. By absorbing the wisdom of their teachings, we can see things that were formerly invisible; we can chart our own course in the universe, our destiny. Without them, humanity is doomed to repeat the same mistakes (or worse) with each successive generation.

…………………à ¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢ €¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â⠂¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚ ¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦..

In this section I’d like to share a few more examples of spiritual language that is convoluted by video games and other media.

Here are some for-instances:

Divine spirit
-ïƒ In World of Warcraft (video game), Divine Spirit is a priest ability, trainable at level 30. It grants a friendly target a buff that increases spirit for 30 minutes.
-ïƒ In guild wars (video game), Divine Spirit is a skill that For 1...11 seconds, Monk spells cost you 5 less Energy to cast (Minimum cost: 1 Energy).
-ïƒ In Runescape (video game) there is a Shield called the Divine spirit Shield.
-ïƒ In Yu-Gi-Oh! There is a playing card “Divine Spirit of the Ice Boundary,â€� also “Sacred spirit of the ice barrierâ€�
-ïƒ The fantasy anime movie “Moribito: Guardian of the Sacred Spiritâ€� involves battles, hardship and magic which exists only in myths.
-ïƒ The book Black God is about a computer programmer who meets a Mototsuitama (divine spirit) over a bowl of ramen and loses an arm because of it. He wakes up the next morning with the arm intact and discovers that every person has a doppleganger and some even have a triple liner.
...so on and so forth.

In religious eschatology, the Divine spirit is a description of transcendence of physical existence and realization of the self, connection to the rest of the universe and knowingness of God.

Remove curse
Remove curse is a spell in the games WoW, Everquest, Guild wars (as remove hex), morrowind, runes of magic, Aion and more.
Curse removal is the subject of many cartoons, television series and movies.

In the real world, curses are invisible, compelling and harmful – also more widespread than one might think.

Ascension
Ascension is the belief in some religions that there are certain rare individuals that have ascended into Heaven directly without dying first (from Wikipedia)
Ascension is a quest in the video game Aion, where the avatar becomes a God and gains wings.
Ascension in the video game Guild Wars “ a legendary feat that gives characters the blessings of the gods of Tyria� (from guildwiki.com)
In the video game Ultima IX, Ascension refers to the character going to a higher plane. Here is an excerpt about the plot, from Wikipedia:

“As the quest progresses, the Avatar learns that the Guardian has stolen the Runes of the Virtues and twisted them into the glyphs that form the heart of each of the columns. Most of the game consists of traveling through the dungeons to recover the glyphs and visiting the Shrines of the Virtues to meditate and cleanse them. Eventually, it is revealed that the Guardian is nothing other than the dark half of the Avatar himself, and the only way to save Britannia is for the Avatar to ascend to a higher plane, taking the Guardian with him. The player is able to accomplish this via an Armageddon spell cast behind a Barrier of Life, which takes the Avatar and the Guardian to a higher plane out of Britannia.�

This excerpt has a rich metaphorical depth that is somewhat representative of humanities’ struggle as a whole – but only a spiritual person would see that. Everybody else is much more likely to assemble a contextual framework that associates fantasy with meditation, Armageddon with magic, dungeons with adventure, and higher planes with in-game progress (leveling up).

So from here on out I will collectively refer to cartoon media, rather than to video games, card games, board games, comic magazines, anime movies, manga, etc.
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Contextual framework:
When I say “conceptual framework,� I am describing the way that different ideas cross-link with one another. For instance:
1. My notion of chakras is linked to my personal experiences with energy work, astral projection, breath-retention, auras and Kundalini. To me, Chakra signifies the many wheels on my body.
2. A Naruto fan will link the idea of Chakras to naruto memes: violence, god-like powers, fast paced cartoon-entertainment, revenge and war; with it all taking place in a fantasy world. To the Naruto fan, Chakra signifies the action and adventure in an immersive magical fantasy world.
3. A mother of a Naruto fan will likely link the idea of chakras to fantasy, delusion, child-like behavior, hobbies, games, waste of time. Chakra signifies the immature behavior of children.
4. Many yoga practitioners associate the chakras to elitism, spiritual doctrine, vibrations, books, teachers, vegetarianism, trends in yoga, retreats. Chakra signifies a distinguished group of spiritual aspirants.

Now we’re into semantics: each person means something different (based on their conceptual framework) even though they might say the same exact thing. No matter who talks with whom (in the above group), there will be (invisible) barriers to comprehension based on preconceived notions/memes. So they do not hear the correct message regardless of how it is conveyed.

When some messasg is conveyed, we should ask:
What do they mean?
What is not meant?
What is the context?
What is implied?
What is missing from the dialogue?
Does a person’s conception of meaning conform to the definition of the word?
What is the message? How will it be received?

Of course, there are other differences between spiritual practice and cartoon media Spiritual practice is quiet and still whereas cartoon media is loud and active. Cartoon media is typically violent and fast paced whereas meditation is neither. Cartoon media provides constant and excessive rewards for even trivial actions, generating a sense of entitlement, whereas meditation is much more selective; I might be more apt to say that spiritual rewards are not point or currency based (as are games) and when rewards do arrive, it is generally suddenly and without warning and they generally only come as a result of hard work and diligence.

New spiritual aspirants are immediately met with their own inadequacy: their inability to concentrate, inability to remain still, inability to remember what they're supposed to be doing, difficulty in overcoming boredom, etc. In order to advance on a spiritual path, one must overcome one’s self; a minimum level of humility is definitely required.
Again, the opposite is true in cartoon media and in video games especially. Those activities reward hubris, aggressiveness, selfishness, a sense of entitlement and boasting. Staring at a screen or even playing a video game does not require concentration but it does require quickly adapting to rapidly changing visual stimuli.
So what I’m tried to illustrate above is that the contextual framework that is developed is considerably different and that is shapes the character and therefore the behavior of the persons involved.

[Tutor]

:wink:

[Sinera]

I have the same problem with this.

It's is exactly why my preference of type of literature changed. Until 3 years ago I was reading a lots of science-fiction, fantasy, adventure. It was before I went on the spiritual path.

Now I don't anymore. And I don't understand why spiritually oriented people still would like to see those fantasy movies or similar. I don't get it. Because it's a parody.

So now I only read non-fiction stuff. (Of all kinds by the way, not only metaphysical topics). I found out that reality (or what we think it to be) is so much more thrilling.

I don't like those entertainment fantasy "realities" anymore. And I don't like them mimicking metaphysical concepts and things.

I think I can sum up sleeper's worry in one simple sentence:

NO ONE TAKES IT SERIOUSLY ANYMORE !

It is all game, fun, action, special effects, illusion, fantasy ...

The kids like to play in a virtual world of vampires or knights or future soldiers on their playstations or watch 2-3 horror movies per night, but hey ... it's all just entertainment and funny baloney, huh?

And it really is getting parodied and travestied, the irony: mostly by so-called "rational" people -who are not necessarily rational but it is the narrow-minded label they like to stick to themselves.

An example: Just think of the old staunch materialist and religion-basher "Mr Evolution" Richard Dawkins.

When asked what he wants to do now after he retired from his office as university professor, he said he wants to write fantasy novels of the Harry-Potter type now. Just to prove how much EASY fun it can be to make things up (like all things spiritual are made up, as he likes to imply with this.)

This makes me sick. Really sick.

[CFTraveler]

I just wanted to place a marker on this thread- I do have a few thing to say (Hey sleeper, nice to see you after a while) about your dissertation, but ATM don't have time.
I'll come back and write here when I do, if you want to read it .

[ButterflyWoman]

awareness isn't what needs transformation or enlightenment - it's the physical mind/body that does.
I don't think the physical mind/body can be that. Transformed, yes, there is the illusion of transformation as a human experience, but that's just part of the ongoing story.


the physical mind/body needs to attain high levels of realisation, then through effort, become liberated from the illusion/maya/samsara of the world by the illumination of the father-aspect of our soul.
Okay. If that's what you think, that's fine. I'm not going to argue with you because I can't, but that's not my experience, anyway, and if you have have such a set-in-stone viewpoint, there's no use in me talking to you from my viewpoint, which is different.


i do declare that there are physical barriers and they are important to the transformation and realization of the human being.
I don't recall saying... Nevermind. I'm not going to even go there. You're very clear in your beliefs, and it's clear to me that there's no point discussing the matter from my experience.

Namaste.

[sleeper]

Namaste.

*bows*

Namaste

[sleeper]

I just wanted to place a marker on this thread- I do have a few thing to say (Hey sleeper, nice to see you after a while) about your dissertation, but ATM don't have time.
I'll come back and write here when I do, if you want to read it .

Nice to see you as well and please do and i'd enjoy reading that, thanks.

[Korpo]

Hello, sleeper.

Ideas need to float in the common consciousness to be picked up by the receivers who are ready. Kids who fantasize about being Jedi, Harry Potter or any other of these modern-day myths might develop interests that one day bear fruit. People who can feel the grain of truth will always try to get closer to truth once they got some taste for it.

For everyone else it is good entertainment. :)

Agent Fox Moulder fueled my interest for UFOs. As did von Daeniken's books about paleo-SETI. The reading up about this took me here. And then places. :D

Cheers,
Oliver

[sleeper]

Agent Fox Moulder fueled my interest for UFOs. As did von Daeniken's books about paleo-SETI. The reading up about this took me here. And then places. :D

Cheers,
Oliver

Might i ask you a speculative question? I'd like you to entertain the implications and possibilities of different scenarios, if you're willing.

how might your spiritual journey have different if you were never exposed to those above types of media at all?

how might your spiritual journey have been different if you were instead exposed to anime and video games?

how might your spiritual journey have been different if you (with all of your current experiences and knowledge and wisdom, etc.) could travel back in time and initiate your younger self onto the spiritual path? What would you want to do differently and what might you want to do the same?

Purely speculative inquiry.

~dale.

[Korpo]

How would my journey have been different? Hmmm. Hard to say.

My life was full of clues, actually. But what if I had not exposed myself to those media? There would have been others. But something always sparks the interest.

I think millions of people have read about the Beatles going to India. But how many would at some point get a book about their guru to find out why? It's a clue, broadcast far and wide, but not many follow it.

Let's say I did not expose myself to those things I mentioned. Let's say something totally unrelated - like for example trying to learn a method called "Superlearning." Turns out the appendix of the book mentioned all kinds of weird stuff - Rahja Yoga, psychic phenomena and energy lines. I didn't look for that. I looked for a practical skill. But this waited there.

I also had an interest in psychology. So I wondered about interpreting dreams. Turns out the book I read back then was recommended to me later, but also the book contains chapters about lucid dreaming and OBEs.

So, no matter what the medium, the message got through. It was broadcast through all available means to spark my interest.

I was exposed to video games. Heavily. I didn't like anime that much, though. There's always plenty of distractions, but you never know what sparks one's interest. So, kids watch "Dragon Ball Z," I watched "Dexter's Lab." I don't know if it did me any better than them.

I doubt I would have listened to myself. Maybe that's what I do now sometimes. But first I needed a reason to listen, and I had to follow seemingly harmless impulses to get there, I doubt anybody could have told me to go there,

Cheers,
Oliver

[CFTraveler]

For some reason I couldn't get to this sooner, maybe other people had a lot more to say than I- sorry if I repeat what others may have said, I'll just comment as thoughts pop into my head.

Semantical signifiers as lexiconic barriers to communication.
And
Conceptual framework as the mechanism of contextual comprehension.
In other words:
How do you know if your audience understands what you mean when you say it?
Or
Pragmatics. That's quite the comprehensive text you got here. Wow! It's a keeper.



I’m troubled by what I see as a trend; the obscuring of the valuable meaning of valuable words and also adds worthless meaning to the same words. In other words, it is our experiences that contribute to our conceptual framework that we use to translate what we see and hear; translate that into something coherent.

So many people from diverse backgrounds are flocking to spiritual knowledge that I should feel enthusiastic; spiritual seeking is a good thing, however, I’m concerned about the magnitude of the misunderstandings and proclamations that are occurring today. Even though diverse groups flocking to spirituality use much of the same language, they generally mean much different things when they use them and that is contributing overall to a contamination of spiritual knowledge which does not portend well for future generations. I almost disagree- even though a greater number of people are exposed to certain ideas, I find that everyone without exception interprets what they read or learn information in whatever supports their comprehension, and this has been always true- if you take a look at contemporary religions you will see that there are as many interpretations of christianity as there are groups- some have such differing beliefs that they don't even believe that the 'other' ones are christians, and have different understandings of concepts that are thought to be universal in this specific religion- the Holy Spirit is going to be taught one way in a Pentecostal church than in a Unity church, for example.
This doesn't mean that there are many kinds of Holy Spirit, it just means that my understanding of it will be different than the Mormon who knocked on my door yesterday, and I don't expect us to agree on it anytime soon.



Spiritual knowledge has been garnished from thousands of years of hard work and preserved in multi-cultural texts, traditions and by discipleship. Now that we are technologically capable of widely disseminating this information, it should be properly done – humanity has the resources to do it. Why, instead, humanity chooses to create mindless entertainment – I don’t know. I can answer that- some groups believe that to attain any type of progress (spiritual progress, that is) we have to be exposed to some ideas, and it doesn't matter if the brain understands it, because the truth doesn't have to be understood to be recognized, only remembered. So this information is out there partly to be made conscious, and to cause interest in it, as many people have become interested. It doesn't matter if someone else doesn't believe or understand it, chances are they wouldn't have anyway.


But I do know that at the pace the spiritual contamination is going, future generations will have trouble distinguishing truth from fantasy. The thing is, that I don't know anyone who categorically knows truth from fantasy, because truth is truth somewhere, and the only fundamental truth is not context-dependent.



Naruto is a is an fictional ongoing Japanese manga series (anime, manga, movies, card game and video game) about a young ninja. Here is an excerpt from narutopedia, regarding naruto lore:

Chakra (�ャクラ, chakura) is essential to even the most basic jutsu; it is a mixture of the physical energy present in every cell of the body and the spiritual energy gained from exercise and experience. Once mixed, it can be channeled through the chakra circulatory system, which is to chakra as the regular circulatory system is to blood, to any of the 361 chakra points (called tenketsu) in the body. Through various methods, the most common of which is hand seals, the chakra can then be manipulated to create an effect that would not be possible otherwise, such as walking on water.

Here is some non-fiction; excerpts from Wikipedia’s chakra page:

“The Chakras are said to be "force centers" or whorls of energy permeating, from a point on the physical body, the layers of the subtle bodies in an ever-increasing fan-shaped formation. Rotating vortices of subtle matter, they are considered the focal points for the reception and transmission of energies.�

“The central role of the chakras in this model is the raising of Kundalini, where it pierces the various centers, causing various levels of realisation and resulting in the obtention of various siddhis or occult powers, until reaching the crown of the head, resulting in union with the Divine.�

One excerpt is fantasy, one reality How do you know which one is which? How would a Naruto fan distinguish the two?
I will give you an answer from my own experience (not theoretical, this actually has happened a few times):
Occasionally a young kid will google chakras or psiballs or kiballs or something from Naruto, and find themselves here or in other energy-work oriented websites. They originally want to know what is possible, and are flabbergasted when they find out that people do learn to make energy balls and run energy, etc. Invariably they want to find out how to do it, just because it seems cool. Then they read more about it from actual practicioner (such as Robert, or other psi sites, for example, the old psipog (or however it was called). Then they realize there is a lot os serious material and get to one point- find out what this is really for (and get more into real spirituality) or decide that it's too much work for results they are not that interested in. These are the immature kids, who then go on to the next thing.
Out of that initial 'dude' group some end up becoming some kind of practitioner, the rest go on a more traditional life, and like some, end up looking at spirituality when older.
Or not, the cycle goes on.


If you were a gamer, how would you tell the difference between a gamer-fan-website, and an astral projection website? An anime-avatar website and a kundalini website? Most gamers I know already have a fansite or website they're into- they don't learn to do 'stuffs', they want to talk about this or that character. If anything, the only thing they learn from those anime sites is maybe some cultural context about other cultures (like we talk about Abe Lincoln or MLKing, they may be exposed to eastern cultural icons), something they probably won't learn in regular school, so I consider it a good thing.



Of course, to the layperson, both excerpts seem equal in regards to believability and strangeness, fantasy and pragmatism, in their likelihood to empower and in their likelihood to be a total waste of time. To the gamer, meditation is a waste and gaming is a worthy pursuit. To the truth seeker, the inverse is true. But how is the truth seeker to recognize the spiritual path if, at a young age, they began systematic predictive-programming that prevent them from recognizing it? But the same can be said of regular western culture, with IM and FB and smart phones and texting- they turn anyone into an ADD person, even if they didn't have the problem in the first place.
I believe the spiritual path is a calling, that propels you to look for answers, and will continue to pull you until you find whatever suits you. If you feel the call something like an anime site will not be interesting to you. So IMO it's not the medium that's important, it's the drive itself.



Spiritual practice is the only liberation from the entrapments of illusion, maya, samsara. I won't argue this because it's the truth for me, but I'm sure some will disagree with you.

If liberation appears to be a childish game, I don't think that any of these things cause anyone to think this is liberation, just like religious rituals never did take the place of firsthand mystical experience. I don't think that just because cartoons depict eastern spirituality as a sort of 'superhero' achievement this means that it will be confused with liberation- if anything, it is just the westernization of these ideas what changes their focus, and let's face it, the western mindset was there in the first place.


then what truth seeker would choose liberation? In other words, if one doesn’t’ believe in Santa clause, doesn’t believe in Naruto, why should one believe in Chakras and therefore pursue enlightenment? You don't have to believe in chakras to pursue enlightenment- you don't even need to understand chakras to run energy, but you want to want to do it, and that's what matters, IMO. The call, the drive, is what matters, IMO.


Spiritual teachings are a blessing from the learned elders of our past. By absorbing the wisdom of their teachings, we can see things that were formerly invisible; we can chart our own course in the universe, our destiny. Without them, humanity is doomed to repeat the same mistakes (or worse) with each successive generation. That is true about any history of any culture.

…………………à ¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢ €¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â⠂¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚ ¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦..



New spiritual aspirants are immediately met with their own inadequacy: their inability to concentrate, inability to remain still, inability to remember what they're supposed to be doing, difficulty in overcoming boredom, etc. In order to advance on a spiritual path, one must overcome one’s self; a minimum level of humility is definitely required.
Again, the opposite is true in cartoon media and in video games especially. Those activities reward hubris, aggressiveness, selfishness, a sense of entitlement and boasting. Staring at a screen or even playing a video game does not require concentration but it does require quickly adapting to rapidly changing visual stimuli.
So what I’m tried to illustrate above is that the contextual framework that is developed is considerably different and that is shapes the character and therefore the behavior of the persons involved.If you look at how our cultures have evolved, you will see that survival required speed, fast thinking, and quick adaptability, so the tendency for the human to do the opposite from meditative or mystic practices have been there since day one. Only when culture become stable we see things like ashrams and monasteries and the like, and only selected members are able to live in these conditions.
So it's a cultural thing, and anime and cartoon media is just a reflection of how society works- like I said before, there is always something of a mixed bag of tendencies when you have a mixed bag of people living together.

So do I think it's a bad thing? No, I think those that can handle deep spiritual things 'get it' even from Naruto or Dragonball Z (OK, maybe not from DBZ) but these media, which are, by the way, modernized storytelling that has always been part of chinese or japanese culture, only in electronic media- the story of DragonBall (the original with Goku) are just the stories that were told to children from the Monkey King/God- in cartoon form.
Is it 'polluted' or 'wrong'? I don't think so, I just think that when you popularize mythology something gets lost, just like what the Hercules movies did to Greek Mythology,

So, no, I don't agree with your viewpoint.
Which is OK, if we all had the same viewpoint the world would be so boring!

===
ps. sorry about the smelling pistakes, I'm in a hurry. Hurry hurry hurry!

[Korpo]

Hmmm.

Spiritual knowledge does not necessarily come from the elders. It is in a sense renewed with every generation and put into new forms. Teaching ancient insights is not necessarily the best way. In my opinion, it would be better if people of each generation found their own access and taught from that, every time renewing the contact to the source of the material and spinning it out in a new way.

Some dig ancient texts, some don't. There is a wide variety of needs for different ways to be taught. The advantage of our times is the multitude of information becoming freely available.

In fact, thinking back, I wonder how many "ancient Chinese secrets" ;) were sold for a long way as the only and true way to enlightenment - like the Qigong Dr Yang teaches - and actually misled people? I do no longer believe enlightenment derives from an energy practice, and if it does in some cases then because it was a practice that helped unravel, understand and release old psychological structures and not so much one of running energy from A to F through related point B-E. I think there was a lot of marketing, secrecy and ill-led ideas even then.

So, how do you go about being a spiritual seeker? You basically do one step and spirit does 10 steps for you if you are willing. Seemingly trivial events can be trigger points. It's all a matter of what you resonate with. And the resonance will decide what you follow and what not. If you led a life based on this resonance you would lead a truly spiritual life, no matter what happens around you.

What you cannot do is live a life just focussed on just studying teachings. Various needs are built into the human being, and even having fun or being entertained is part of it. Laughing at a joke or watching Shrek 4 can be fulfilling experiences, you just need to develop a sense of when to stop. Life can't be all work or it is dull and feels actually void of life. Just as the lives of many who just idle their time away with too much gaming feel void of life and purposeless. All work and no play - or vice versa. Both is true.

Clothes need to be washed, meals need to be prepared, the body needs to be taken care of, and the spirit needs to be taken care of, and sometimes you need to do things for fun. You can be incredibly busy and have long days full of activity if you mind all aspects of yourself. But I think you can also burn out very quickly if you just try to do only do "the right activities" or "what's important." Liberation matters to me, but I don't think it is found by living an ascetic life.

In fact, if you live your life in all aspects, you will recognise things you no longer need. You effortlessly cast them off, no struggle. The tree does not cast off its leaves in summer, there is a time for it. When the tree no longer needs them, when the leaves served their purpose. And as the tree turns inward for winter so does the human being sometimes in the course of its spiritual evolution to be reborn anew in the next spring of his life. It's no effort for the tree to cast off dry leaves, and so it is also little effort to cast off what is no longer needed once you recognised from within you had enough. That's actually my lived experience - a shift of needs and casting off of what no longer serves me well. But if I had tried to do it by force - no way.

Cheers,
Oliver

[Ouroboros]

As one who grew up on video games and fantasy novels, and spent a good portion of my life addicted to them, I feel I can offer something to this discussion.

Personally, it is my view that cartoon media is neither a hindrance nor a help to spiritual progress. While the portrayal of metaphysics is almost always wildly inaccurate, and some may find it misleading...I think, as others have mentioned, that the true seeker will find a way despite this. That is not to say that cartoon media does not present traps and pitfalls, but anything in life can be a pitfall or a trap.

My experience with video games started very early, around the age of four. My parents got a Nintendo (the original), and from that point on I was hooked. I also loved reading from an early age, and my favorite genre was fantasy, although sci-fi had a special place in my heart too. I was always fascinated by magic in cartoon media and I believe that this did help provide motivation for pursuing spiritual growth. However, my gaming was an addiction, and I did pay a price for that. My ability to concentrate has suffered as a result (ADD like a mofo, yo), and I wasted a lot of time on entertainment that could have been spent much more wisely.

When it comes to dismissing spirituality/metaphysics as a result of overexposure to the fantastic portrayals of the aforementioned subjects, this was somewhat of an issue for me. However, I attribute this more directly to my psychological state than to cartoon media. I was addicted to escapism...I did not like my life, and wanted very much to live in one of those magical worlds, to be one of those magical characters. I did not feel special or important, and felt that if I lived in one of those fantasy worlds my life might actually have some meaning or purpose. And so I lived vicariously through the media, wishing and desiring to be in a world other than my own, where magical things happened. Cartoon media was my way of feeding the need to escape...I'm sure that without it, I would have simply found another thing to lose myself in and escape to.

Today, I rarely play video games, and rarely read anything that isn't related to my work or my spiritual interests. I'm still working on the core psychological issues that drove the addiction to escapism, and I do still deal with a very strong skepticism when it comes to metaphysics. But there's more to that story than just cartoon media, and I think the context in which that media is experienced is an extremely important variable when determining whether it does more harm than good as a form of entertainment.

[sleeper]

Everyone,

thank you for your replies. you have given me much to think about.

i'm leaving it implicit that spiritual teachings have a purpose because i really can't try to argue anything about spiritual paths or goals, because of widespread disagreement.

...............................

CF,

thank you for your lengthy reply. I'm going to mull it over a bit and get back to you.

in the meantime, if you're interested, please consider out these three things:
1. Pavlovian Conditioning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cP5lCleK-PM&feature=player_embedded#!
2. Punishment/Rewards based systems are well defined in cartoon media, especially games. http://www.psychology.iastate.edu/faculty/caa/abstracts/2005-2009/05CA.pdf
3. Building the game layer on top of the world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn9fTc_WMbo

.......................

Korpo,

I do no longer believe enlightenment derives from an energy practice, and if it does in some cases then because it was a practice that helped unravel, understand and release old psychological structures and not so much one of running energy from A to F through related point B-E.
Oliver
Would you mind extrapolating on what you think enlightenment, what leads to it, and what you mean when you say psychological structures?

Ouroboros,

I didn't want to let the cat out of the bag too early but i'm actually not opposed to video games (strangely). My experiences have made it abundantly clear that the elements of gaming are actually quite useful in many ways and are completely absent from every other aspect of our society. for instance, imagine how much progress one could make in say, AP, if progress was broken down into infinitesimally small portions, there was a constant assessment of progress, quest givers (and reward givers, for that matter), constantly new challenges that could be overcome, and aspiring AP'ers would commit 3-6 hours per day (or more) to practice (as do many gamers). One of my current projects is the collection and consolidation of the Principles of Gaming into useful life guiding principles - there are many more of these than i listed above and i do declare that they are not likely to be discovered or utilized by any non-gamer.

........................................


Personally, it is my view that cartoon media is neither a hindrance nor a help to spiritual progress.

Please elaborate --> what do you consider to be hindrances to spiritual progress? what do you consider to be helpful? what do you consider spiritual progress to be, actually?


(ADD like a mofo, yo)
do you mind if i ask what your healing protocols are for handling your ADD?

I'm glad you brought up escapism because that is tangential to my concerns in an important yet strange way. If i may be candid without being taken the wrong way; i simply mean this literally:
we live in amazing times where we actually have the luxury of being escapists and i'm not actually opposed to it per se. my focus is on the future and i predict that in short order, our lives will become much more difficult and riddled with strife, and we will be forced to prioritize quite severely: i mean that we won't have time to do whatever we want so what little time we will have will be very precious to us and we will be selective about what we choose to do with it. that being the (predicted) case, i think that many of us will reminisce about the times that we enjoy now.

............

ciao

[Ouroboros]

Please elaborate --> what do you consider to be hindrances to spiritual progress? what do you consider to be helpful? what do you consider spiritual progress to be, actually?

My opinion:
A hindrance is any action taken by an individual that takes them further away from their purpose, and helpful is any action taken by an individual that brings them closer. Essentially, it is not the things, events, or people in our lives that are hindrances or helps to our spiritual progress, but rather it is the reaction we have to these events, things, or people. Yes, people can have amazing blissful transcendent experiences...but if their reactions to the experience take them away from their purpose, then it's not much of a help. Therefore, no thing, event, or person can - in and of themselves - be considered to be a spiritual hindrance or help.

Spiritual progress is too difficult to define. I cannot even define it for myself, really, so I won't make an attempt at a more general definition. I used "purpose" above because it was the closest match to what I want to express that I could think of. Keep in mind I'm not what one would consider a "spiritually advanced" person. Spiritual progress for me at this point would be some sense of connection to any sort of Higher Self I may or may not have.


do you mind if i ask what your healing protocols are for handling your ADD?

Not at all! I don't have any. :P Well, that's assuming "protocols" have the correlation of a disciplined effort. I do make attempts at meditating regularly, and I'm trying to exercise more...but discipline is something I've been lacking for a long time.

Also, I love your idea concerning the Principles of Gaming. I've had similar thoughts many many times - I'm very interested in what you've got going with that, so I'd love to read more if you want to write it up, perhaps as another thread. Or in a PM if you're more comfortable with that. :)


that being the (predicted) case, i think that many of us will reminisce about the times that we enjoy now.


Even if it's not the case, I'm sure many of us will still reminisce about the times we enjoy now. ;)

[sleeper]

i'll be certain to post game dynamics and principles of game design soon, maybe as soon as 1 week.

[Korpo]

Hello, sleeper.



Korpo,

I do no longer believe enlightenment derives from an energy practice, and if it does in some cases then because it was a practice that helped unravel, understand and release old psychological structures and not so much one of running energy from A to F through related point B-E.
Oliver
Would you mind extrapolating on what you think enlightenment, what leads to it, and what you mean when you say psychological structures?


Enlightenment is to me the ability to be with any kind of situation.

Leading to it is the increasing ability to be with a multitude of situations through learning. This kind of learning breaks down all kinds of inward obstacles towards enlightenment.

"Old psychological structures" are the obstacles I mentioned. Obsolete reactions to your environment that do not serve you anymore. In this sense, enlightenment is the ability to come up with a new and unique response to any situation one is in, just as new and unique the situations are one is faced with.

During the course of one's personal evolution behaviours can become outdated that once served you well. You leave them behind and move closer to that state of enlightenment.

Cheers,
Oliver

[sleeper]

do you mind if i ask what your healing protocols are for handling your ADD?

Not at all! I don't have any. :P Well, that's assuming "protocols" have the correlation of a disciplined effort. I do make attempts at meditating regularly, and I'm trying to exercise more...but discipline is something I've been lacking for a long time.

have you considered removing toxins from your diet? artificial colors, preservatives, artificial flavors and more contribute greatly to ADD (google it if you had not heard of that).

also, most if not all people with neurological dysfunction have some form of gluten/gliaden sensitivity. there are a variety of ways that it can manifest itself, however, up to 90% of westerners may have gluten sensitivity, which is a form of immune response to gluten in the diet. there are many kinds of immune responses. gluten can also affect the thyroid and metabolism adversely.

there's a lot of other stuff too but tell me what you think of this stuff first.




Enlightenment is to me the ability to be with any kind of situation.

Cheers,
Oliver

why do you call it enlightenment? personally i call that "being present" or "keeping my cool" (unless i'm misunderstanding you).

dale

[Ouroboros]

have you considered removing toxins from your diet? artificial colors, preservatives, artificial flavors and more contribute greatly to ADD (google it if you had not heard of that).

also, most if not all people with neurological dysfunction have some form of gluten/gliaden sensitivity. there are a variety of ways that it can manifest itself, however, up to 90% of westerners may have gluten sensitivity, which is a form of immune response to gluten in the diet. there are many kinds of immune responses. gluten can also affect the thyroid and metabolism adversely.

I've considered it, never done it. Is it possible to have a gluten-free, toxin-free diet that doesn't involve a considerable investment in time? (That's not meant to be sarcastic, btw, I'm genuinely not sure. Haven't really had the time to research it.)

[sleeper]

Is it possible to have a gluten-free, toxin-free diet that doesn't involve a considerable investment in time? (That's not meant to be sarcastic, btw, I'm genuinely not sure. Haven't really had the time to research it.)

it's super easy, i do it. your ancestors did it too.

if you eat only what they ate, you'll be well on your way. you certainly have inherited certain nutritional requirements from them that can only be met with the same types of diet they had.

what do you think they ate?

[sleeper]

sorry for the delay in replying to your post cf.

i'm going to be honest: i'm scared to reply here because the quote management and text-editing is going to be a pain in the rear.


For some reason I couldn't get to this sooner, maybe other people had a lot more to say than I- sorry if I repeat what others may have said, I'll just comment as thoughts pop into my head.

Semantical signifiers as lexiconic barriers to communication.
And
Conceptual framework as the mechanism of contextual comprehension.
In other words:
How do you know if your audience understands what you mean when you say it?
Or
Pragmatics.
That's quite the comprehensive text you got here. Wow! It's a keeper.

thanks. The title is where i wrote my primary concerns; that i'm unable to communicate with people clearly when discussing spiritual things. My feeling on it at present is that i can substitute the word marklar for almost any spiritual word and communicate just as clearly. for instance: "last night my marklar was amazing. i left my marklar and went to marklar and talked to marklar. marklar told me to marklar my marklar and i wrote that down. then i raised my marklar by lighting a marklar and listening to marklar until my marklar ran out. now i'm in a dark marklar of the marklar - can anyone send me some marklar?"

so my issue, my confession, is that i have a deep personal need to share my experiences and insights with others, and to hear their stories, and to grow together. I'm growing at a tremendous pace and although i share what i can when i can, i only share about 2% of my big stuff, and near-zero of the small stuff. i just think it's a waste - a waste that only i benefit from knowledge and wisdom that is so easy to share.

it's also a waste that i can't bounce my message off of other people. I know i can greatly benefit from the input of others. but i'd do less damage and get more input if i just bounced a brick off of my kitchen cabinet, rather than to randomly throw my thoughts online. so i'm selective; i post to certain people on certain forums when i think some good might come from it.


I’m troubled by what I see as a trend; the obscuring of the valuable meaning of valuable words and also adds worthless meaning to the same words. In other words, it is our experiences that contribute to our conceptual framework that we use to translate what we see and hear; translate that into something coherent.

So many people from diverse backgrounds are flocking to spiritual knowledge that I should feel enthusiastic; spiritual seeking is a good thing, however, I’m concerned about the magnitude of the misunderstandings and proclamations that are occurring today. Even though diverse groups flocking to spirituality use much of the same language, they generally mean much different things when they use them and that is contributing overall to a contamination of spiritual knowledge which does not portend well for future generations. I almost disagree- even though a greater number of people are exposed to certain ideas, I find that everyone without exception interprets what they read or learn information in whatever supports their comprehension, and this has been always true- if you take a look at contemporary religions you will see that there are as many interpretations of christianity as there are groups- some have such differing beliefs that they don't even believe that the 'other' ones are christians, and have different understandings of concepts that are thought to be universal in this specific religion- the Holy Spirit is going to be taught one way in a Pentecostal church than in a Unity church, for example.
This doesn't mean that there are many kinds of Holy Spirit, it just means that my understanding of it will be different than the Mormon who knocked on my door yesterday, and I don't expect us to agree on it anytime soon.

Those are good points: i hope never to affect a person's interpretation or opinion on something; rather i'd like to learn what others opinions are, why they came to them and how..
i'm concerned about core functional issues.
e.g. astral projection. i don't care if a projection aspirant believes in energy-body-double or believes empty body theory; as long as they can functionally leave their body.
e.g. kundalini. i don't care if people think kundalini is the serpent from the garden of eden or if they think it's an experience our subconscious creates like a dream. if they can functionally raise kundalini, i don't care.
e.g. emotional blockages. whether they believe in EFT, hypnosis, past life regression, hex removal, the power of forgiveness, etc. if a person can functionally remove blockages that's what matters to me.

regarding the holy spirit, i have to confess that i have no idea what that is, at least in a christian, jewish, islamic, hindu, or other context. But i do know what yeshua meant when he used the term. I know what mahavatar babiji means by it. I know what my experiences taught me. But when i talk to a christian, i know that they mean something by i that i simply do not understand.


Spiritual knowledge has been garnished from thousands of years of hard work and preserved in multi-cultural texts, traditions and by discipleship. Now that we are technologically capable of widely disseminating this information, it should be properly done – humanity has the resources to do it. Why, instead, humanity chooses to create mindless entertainment – I don’t know. I can answer that- some groups believe that to attain any type of progress (spiritual progress, that is) we have to be exposed to some ideas, and it doesn't matter if the brain understands it, because the truth doesn't have to be understood to be recognized, only remembered. So this information is out there partly to be made conscious, and to cause interest in it, as many people have become interested. It doesn't matter if someone else doesn't believe or understand it, chances are they wouldn't have anyway.

ok then define spiritual progress and how it occurs please. and what groups believes in the idea you're alluding to?


But I do know that at the pace the spiritual contamination is going, future generations will have trouble distinguishing truth from fantasy. The thing is, that I don't know anyone who categorically knows truth from fantasy, because truth is truth somewhere, and the only fundamental truth is not context-dependent.

forgive me for being candid, but i don't understand why you doubt yourself and others so severely. we are instruments of perception, of analysis, of memory. if there is any other creature more capable of distinguishing between fact and fiction, more capable than human beings, i have no idea what they would be. Human beings seem quite capable of making this distinction. for instance, when a mosquito bites you, do you categorically diagnose the situation and write a treatise on it? do you pinch yourself to see if it's a dream? do you ask others to take a photo and see if the mosquito shows up in the picture? or do you swat the damn bug and move on with things?

we're all subject to social engineering, mind control, emotional distress, pavlovian training throughout our life and many of use are paralyzed by self doubt. you're capable of making important distinctions, as am I, as are all who frequent this board. and one important step towards freedom is to stop creating impossible problems. our problems are simple. again, if i pinched a nerve, forgive me. i'm just engaging the discussion.


Naruto is a is an fictional ongoing Japanese manga series (anime, manga, movies, card game and video game) about a young ninja. Here is an excerpt from narutopedia, regarding naruto lore:

Chakra (�ャクラ, chakura) is essential to even the most basic jutsu; it is a mixture of the physical energy present in every cell of the body and the spiritual energy gained from exercise and experience. Once mixed, it can be channeled through the chakra circulatory system, which is to chakra as the regular circulatory system is to blood, to any of the 361 chakra points (called tenketsu) in the body. Through various methods, the most common of which is hand seals, the chakra can then be manipulated to create an effect that would not be possible otherwise, such as walking on water.

Here is some non-fiction; excerpts from Wikipedia’s chakra page:

“The Chakras are said to be "force centers" or whorls of energy permeating, from a point on the physical body, the layers of the subtle bodies in an ever-increasing fan-shaped formation. Rotating vortices of subtle matter, they are considered the focal points for the reception and transmission of energies.�

“The central role of the chakras in this model is the raising of Kundalini, where it pierces the various centers, causing various levels of realisation and resulting in the obtention of various siddhis or occult powers, until reaching the crown of the head, resulting in union with the Divine.�

One excerpt is fantasy, one reality How do you know which one is which? How would a Naruto fan distinguish the two?
I will give you an answer from my own experience (not theoretical, this actually has happened a few times):
Occasionally a young kid will google chakras or psiballs or kiballs or something from Naruto, and find themselves here or in other energy-work oriented websites. They originally want to know what is possible, and are flabbergasted when they find out that people do learn to make energy balls and run energy, etc. Invariably they want to find out how to do it, just because it seems cool. Then they read more about it from actual practicioner (such as Robert, or other psi sites, for example, the old psipog (or however it was called). Then they realize there is a lot os serious material and get to one point- find out what this is really for (and get more into real spirituality) or decide that it's too much work for results they are not that interested in. These are the immature kids, who then go on to the next thing.
Out of that initial 'dude' group some end up becoming some kind of practitioner, the rest go on a more traditional life, and like some, end up looking at spirituality when older.
Or not, the cycle goes on.

I see your point and for the most part agree. where our opinions seem to diverge (i'm guessing) is where we entertain the implications of other possibilities. I wonder what would happen if there were DVD's of robert bruce in every home? if there were copies of astral dynamics on every shelf? if people simply knew who robert monroe was and what conclusions he came to during his life - what then? I just think real spirituality is an important issue that's almost completely ignored and that more people would accomplish their dreams and goals if they had a better knowledge base to start. I mean, most people spend their entire lives believing that work and food and family is all that life has to offer. introducing spirituality through cartoon media may be better than nothing, but it's certainly not nearly as good as presenting spirituality honestly.


If you were a gamer, how would you tell the difference between a gamer-fan-website, and an astral projection website? An anime-avatar website and a kundalini website? Most gamers I know already have a fansite or website they're into- they don't learn to do 'stuffs', they want to talk about this or that character. If anything, the only thing they learn from those anime sites is maybe some cultural context about other cultures (like we talk about Abe Lincoln or MLKing, they may be exposed to eastern cultural icons), something they probably won't learn in regular school, so I consider it a good thing.

so do you think that this website, spiritual books, and spiritual teachers will always exist? the future i see coming has access to information restricted, and access to entertainment unlimited.


Of course, to the layperson, both excerpts seem equal in regards to believability and strangeness, fantasy and pragmatism, in their likelihood to empower and in their likelihood to be a total waste of time. To the gamer, meditation is a waste and gaming is a worthy pursuit. To the truth seeker, the inverse is true. But how is the truth seeker to recognize the spiritual path if, at a young age, they began systematic predictive-programming that prevent them from recognizing it? But the same can be said of regular western culture, with IM and FB and smart phones and texting- they turn anyone into an ADD person, even if they didn't have the problem in the first place.
I believe the spiritual path is a calling, that propels you to look for answers, and will continue to pull you until you find whatever suits you. If you feel the call something like an anime site will not be interesting to you. So IMO it's not the medium that's important, it's the drive itself.

i agree about the calling and the drive, but i question what future generations will find once they seek the truth.


Spiritual practice is the only liberation from the entrapments of illusion, maya, samsara. I won't argue this because it's the truth for me, but I'm sure some will disagree with you.

If liberation appears to be a childish game, I don't think that any of these things cause anyone to think this is liberation, just like religious rituals never did take the place of firsthand mystical experience. I don't think that just because cartoons depict eastern spirituality as a sort of 'superhero' achievement this means that it will be confused with liberation- if anything, it is just the westernization of these ideas what changes their focus, and let's face it, the western mindset was there in the first place.


then what truth seeker would choose liberation? In other words, if one doesn’t’ believe in Santa clause, doesn’t believe in Naruto, why should one believe in Chakras and therefore pursue enlightenment? You don't have to believe in chakras to pursue enlightenment- you don't even need to understand chakras to run energy, but you want to want to do it, and that's what matters, IMO. The call, the drive, is what matters, IMO.

in this context i'm concerned that it's a "terd in the punchbowl" so to speak. it only takes one terd to ruin the whole thing.


Spiritual teachings are a blessing from the learned elders of our past. By absorbing the wisdom of their teachings, we can see things that were formerly invisible; we can chart our own course in the universe, our destiny. Without them, humanity is doomed to repeat the same mistakes (or worse) with each successive generation. That is true about any history of any culture.

…………………à ¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢ €¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â⠂¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦Ã¢â‚ ¬Â¦Ã¢â‚¬Â¦..



New spiritual aspirants are immediately met with their own inadequacy: their inability to concentrate, inability to remain still, inability to remember what they're supposed to be doing, difficulty in overcoming boredom, etc. In order to advance on a spiritual path, one must overcome one’s self; a minimum level of humility is definitely required.
Again, the opposite is true in cartoon media and in video games especially. Those activities reward hubris, aggressiveness, selfishness, a sense of entitlement and boasting. Staring at a screen or even playing a video game does not require concentration but it does require quickly adapting to rapidly changing visual stimuli.
So what I’m tried to illustrate above is that the contextual framework that is developed is considerably different and that is shapes the character and therefore the behavior of the persons involved.If you look at how our cultures have evolved, you will see that survival required speed, fast thinking, and quick adaptability, so the tendency for the human to do the opposite from meditative or mystic practices have been there since day one. Only when culture become stable we see things like ashrams and monasteries and the like, and only selected members are able to live in these conditions.
So it's a cultural thing, and anime and cartoon media is just a reflection of how society works- like I said before, there is always something of a mixed bag of tendencies when you have a mixed bag of people living together.

So do I think it's a bad thing? No, I think those that can handle deep spiritual things 'get it' even from Naruto or Dragonball Z (OK, maybe not from DBZ) but these media, which are, by the way, modernized storytelling that has always been part of chinese or japanese culture, only in electronic media- the story of DragonBall (the original with Goku) are just the stories that were told to children from the Monkey King/God- in cartoon form.
Is it 'polluted' or 'wrong'? I don't think so, I just think that when you popularize mythology something gets lost, just like what the Hercules movies did to Greek Mythology,

So, no, I don't agree with your viewpoint.
Which is OK, if we all had the same viewpoint the world would be so boring!

===
ps. sorry about the smelling pistakes, I'm in a hurry. Hurry hurry hurry![/quote]

ok here is a question for you: without spiritual teachings, without cartoon media, pretending that the words meditation, karma, kundalini, samadahi, etc. don't exist, how does one go about discovering these things on their own?

[sleeper]

also,

CF - thanks for the long reply. it's always a joy when you share your thoughts with me.

~dale

[eyeoneblack]

ok here is a question for you: without spiritual teachings, without cartoon media, pretending that the words meditation, karma, kundalini, samadahi, etc. don't exist, how does one go about discovering these things on their own?


It makes no difference. The words do not convey the experience, they only give us something, a construct, that we can then argue about. :lol: E.g. what is 'lucid'? I'm still not quite sure. All I have is my experience and if 'lucid' doesn't catch it, then what am I to do? Make a new word? Might as well. :wink:

[sleeper]

ok here is a question for you: without spiritual teachings, without cartoon media, pretending that the words meditation, karma, kundalini, samadahi, etc. don't exist, how does one go about discovering these things on their own?


It makes no difference. The words do not convey the experience, they only give us something, a construct, that we can then argue about. :lol: E.g. what is 'lucid'? I'm still not quite sure. All I have is my experience and if 'lucid' doesn't catch it, then what am I to do? Make a new word? Might as well. :wink:

ok how do new experiences come about? how does novelty arise out of ignorance? do we stumble upon new new things? do we discover new things? do we create novelty? are we divinely gifted with experiences? what is the process of personal spiritual discovery?

[Korpo]

Divinely gifted with our own participation as co-creators.

That's why so many method and methodologies exist. We give the truth our own spin. Each school, each teaching highlights another aspect of the truth, but the truth is given from above.

Cheers,
Oliver

[sleeper]

Divinely gifted with our own participation as co-creators.

That's why so many method and methodologies exist. We give the truth our own spin. Each school, each teaching highlights another aspect of the truth, but the truth is given from above.

Cheers,
Oliver
by "given from above," what do you mean?

[Korpo]

"Above" as in "higher" in a context like "higher being."

Cheers,
Oliver

[sleeper]

"Above" as in "higher" in a context like "higher being."

Cheers,
Oliver

i'm curious whether you mean higher self, spirit guide, god, or the universe, or something different.

[Korpo]

i'm curious whether you mean higher self, spirit guide, god, or the universe, or something different.

Yes, yes, yes, yes and maybe, in that order. ;)

Cheers,
Oliver

[Tutor]

Sleeper,

what person, place or thing...being named is not from the nameless?

even as we, being below, refer to this 'nameless' as "the above".

yes, yes, yes, yes...ad infinitum. right on Korpo.

tim

[sleeper]

Sleeper,

what person, place or thing...being named is not from the nameless?

even as we, being below, refer to this 'nameless' as "the above".

yes, yes, yes, yes...ad infinitum. right on Korpo.

tim

is the nameless such because it is beyond names, or because it had no parents to name it?

[Tutor]

Sleeper,

what person, place or thing...being named is not from the nameless?

even as we, being below, refer to this 'nameless' as "the above".

yes, yes, yes, yes...ad infinitum. right on Korpo.

tim

is the nameless such because it is beyond names, or because it had no parents to name it?


is 'tim' a fish on sleeper's hook? no

your question reveals that the term 'nameless' is beyond your current understanding, simply because neither question nor answer approaches 'nameless'.

the apparent nature of you or I is sufficient for understanding 'nameless'. my name 'tim' means nothing without understanding, yet with my nature understood also am I named 'tim'. thus has 'tim' awakened as everything from and to, yet that zero point which from and to do come and go is 'nameless'.

no one can know 'nameless', yet everyone may understand 'nameless' through them self understood.

the 'real' query here for you is 'you', and is not, "is the nameless such because it is beyond names, or because it had no parents to name it?"

what is your name and is your name truely yours through a nature understood truthfully?

i've barely got a bead on who is me, much less who you are. we can share this mystical wonder, or we can be questioned at every turn of a word until it becomes an inane intellectual experience where nothing intimate survives.

it's your party however, and the participants are getting thirsty and wonderin when the pizza is going to arrive. your move....

tim

[sleeper]

Sleeper,

what person, place or thing...being named is not from the nameless?

even as we, being below, refer to this 'nameless' as "the above".

yes, yes, yes, yes...ad infinitum. right on Korpo.

tim

is the nameless such because it is beyond names, or because it had no parents to name it?


is 'tim' a fish on sleeper's hook? no

your question reveals that the term 'nameless' is beyond your current understanding, simply because neither question nor answer approaches 'nameless'.

the apparent nature of you or I is sufficient for understanding 'nameless'. my name 'tim' means nothing without understanding, yet with my nature understood also am I named 'tim'. thus has 'tim' awakened as everything from and to, yet that zero point which from and to do come and go is 'nameless'.

no one can know 'nameless', yet everyone may understand 'nameless' through them self understood.

the 'real' query here for you is 'you', and is not, "is the nameless such because it is beyond names, or because it had no parents to name it?"

what is your name and is your name truely yours through a nature understood truthfully?

i've barely got a bead on who is me, much less who you are. we can share this mystical wonder, or we can be questioned at every turn of a word until it becomes an inane intellectual experience where nothing intimate survives.

it's your party however, and the participants are getting thirsty and wonderin when the pizza is going to arrive. your move....

tim

I'm not trying to hook you; i'm trying to have a discussion with you. i simply wondered what your conception of "the nameless" consisted of.

But more importantly: why would you criticize anyone, ever, for asking questions? do you chastise children as well, for their curiosity?

i don't pretend to know anything - but i try to make it clear that i'm very interested in learning from others. if you're willing to share what you know, i'm willing to listen.

[Tutor]

well sleeper, neither do we pretend to know anything. that was the point of what i wrote to ya.

your approach is like dropping coins into a slot machine that knows something. look...., it's all speculative, and we share the speculations reaped from our own experiential evidence. that is all we got, just like you.

we are all children in that regard, formative of maturing speculations. i cant see where i criticized you at all, and if it seemed as such, what is wrong with positive criticism.

my intent was to grab your attention, not to myself, because i am of no particular importance. but rather, so that you might see yourself, your attention on you.

listen, a conversation is not a one sided interrogation, last time i checked. so i turned the question to you, to with, ask yourself. your answer is as good as mine, or mine isnt worth anything either. in that sharing of speculations we might together arrive in a conversation. ya reckon?

look, your questions reveal that you are very intelligent, that you really wish to understand the topic in a more mature way. i am merely trying to get you to see yourself in this thread, to see how brilliant you are, that you've got an intelligence that can adequately formulate just as good a speculation as anyone else.

i cant speak for Korpo, but "yes, yes, yes, yes and some more yes" is the sign that says, dang! i'd like to catch my breath here amongst the treadmill that this thread feels like.

so, read correctly, my reply that you felt was criticism for you, is really me saying, "I havent got a clue, what do you think it means". like i said, "your move".

but you are welcome to criticize me, of course. i see your point. i guess i am an old fart that's rude to children. man, that's a harsh reflection...but there it is, read em and weap.

think i might go join CPW on the splintery wooden bench, after all. youth, everybit wasted on the young. i was young too, once, ya know?

tim

[sleeper]

your approach is like dropping coins into a slot machine that knows something.tim

that's true. i don't want to treat people like slot machines but i do want to engender an eagerness to share their knowledge, wisdom and kindness with me. so i /poke them until i get what i want, them sharing their personal bounty, i guess.



you've got an intelligence that can adequately formulate just as good a speculation as anyone else.
I'll never accomplish my life-goals on my own. i have placed tremendous faith in other people and try to honor that faith by placing my weight on their shoulders. I don't want them to pack me around, but i'd like them to help understand our shared human condition, solve our collective and individual problems, and share with me insights about things that i haven't even formed questions about yet. We can speculate, but i am confident that what you, I and others have to offer is more potent than speculation. what we share together is very valuable, a treasure of great worth, the ability to discover, create, explore, share stories, and know the truth.


i'd like to catch my breath here amongst the treadmill that this thread feels like.
well. at least you didn't call it a mouse wheel.


what do you think it means
I think that the nameless is our way of acknowledging that our language is inadequate for describing anything complete in it's wholeness. our language, as you know, can break ideas into infinitesimally small pieces, but it can not put them back together, it can not describe wholeness.

So everything complete in it's wholeness is also nameless. for now...

[Tutor]

I think that the nameless is our way of acknowledging that our language is inadequate for describing anything complete in it's wholeness. our language, as you know, can break ideas into infinitesimally small pieces, but it can not put them back together, it can not describe wholeness.

So everything complete in it's wholeness is also nameless. for now...

i like that.

yet, with all the water dispersed around the earth, we can see the oceans connective of Ocean, and we've only begun to investigate this body of water as something other than an obstacle requiring a crossing. i read a few days ago a headline that said, "we know more about the moon than we know about the Ocean.

in an odd way, i think this unknowing of our Ocean is synonymous with our unknowing of Spirit, despite all the philosophy/religious oral/written 'language' given toward it.

i wonder have we sought religion as the compromise with Spirit as obstacle, much like our relationship has been with the Ocean. I see simularitys in these two relative to man.

personally, i think that neanderthal man was one with spirit. that native american, aboriginal australian....etc, all these were one with spirit, and that when met by religion, like spirit as obstacle, were in the way.

just my general thoughts...

tim

[sleeper]

tim,

those are good thoughts and i broadly agree with you. I often think of how much better my spiritual practice will be once i'm feral in the woods - listening to the binaural beats of nature.


yet, with all the water dispersed around the earth, we can see the oceans connective of Ocean, and we've only begun to investigate this body of water as something other than an obstacle requiring a crossing. i read a few days ago a headline that said, "we know more about the moon than we know about the Ocean....in an odd way, i think this unknowing of our Ocean is synonymous with our unknowing of Spirit, despite all the philosophy/religious oral/written 'language' given toward it......personally, i think that neanderthal man was one with spirit. that native american, aboriginal australian....etc, all these were one with spirit, and that when met by religion, like spirit as obstacle, were in the way.

I believe that our society's failure to notice what's happening all around us while staring at the cosmos is a racial problem. I think it's due to an over-abundance of Caucasian people (i'm Caucasian by the way) in power. white people seem to have a propensity towards hyper-intellectualism at the expense of their planet, their family, their health, etc. and they tend to intellectualize religion and spirituality (look at Ken Wilbur, for example).

so I often wonder whether aboriginal peoples were somewhat more spiritual because of how they lived, who they are, or because of the interconnection between the two things. the reason i bring this up is because i wonder whether I have a problem with religion, or a problem with the way that white people do religion.

Either way, for me, it comes down to a question of values. What do you value? what do i value? what does society value?

I value the subtle and delicate relationships in nature and in us people. I value human potential and hard work. i value rest and relationships.

That means that i value Grandparents and little children; strong men and supportive women; religion and spirituality, everyone coming together in the evenings to rest and to share their stories. I look forward to a day that society values those same things as well.

But every day, our production-based society cares more for the economy, for transportation, for law, for space exploration, for public services. and so many people are for abortion, euthanasia, inmate labor camps, dormitories and broken home families. our society fears strength and virtue; loves energy drinks and hates rest; and rarely spends time together without a TV or sports game involved.

so my opinion is that the problems we face are myriad, but they are problems that we can easily overcome with effort.

~dale

[Antares]

Well, this can be summed up to this:

Limits:

the differences between those are:
philosopher: f(not known) = what is going on (p) - concludes from "what ifs"
scientist: f(known) = what is going on (s) - ignores "what ifs"
pracitioner: f(not known) = what is not going on (p2) - runs away from the unknown
mage: f(known) = what is not going on (m) - focuses solely on the unknown

Beyond limits:

god: f(p, s, p2, m) = limitless

Conclusion:
watch your thoughts from the beyond.

[CFTraveler]

It's interesting that a thread from ten years ago is so apropos today. Nothing has changed.