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Beekeeper
20th August 2010, 11:12 AM
For many, possibly all of us, to be a human being is to be in a state of vacillation between intense “knowing” and extreme doubt. Whether it’s conditioning or something innate, humans want to know who we are, why we are here and where we are going. Thus, we search for clues. Some adhere to religious belief, trusting in a universal, undistorted truth and fearing that to engage independent thought would condemn them to some form of suffering that might even be eternal. Others make a new religion of Science, adamant that it will eventually rationally answer all questions, magically free of politics, human manipulations and human error. Atheism and agnosticism are the refuge of others, possibly because they find competing truths so confusing or constricting and at odds with their own impulses, intuitions or sense of justice. Maybe, also, they rebel against earlier experience at the hands of religious zealots or hypocrites.

Such is life on this planet that when we do have experiences that the consensus declares unusual or impossible we question our own perceptions and even our sanity. We know through experience that the equipment may be faulty: we age, our eyes fail, our hearts fail and, so, we may be prone to distrusting our own experiences. We know of others around us who experience reality in a way that bears no semblance to the majority, those deemed insane, and we fear such a fate for ourselves. We may have spiritual experiences that are entirely compelling and life altering at the time but because we are subject to time and change, they become somehow less possible as we move further from them. Thus, we vacillate. We hang on to these memories in the hope such direct experiences evidence a benevolent organising force or some latent human power that will ultimately evolve and transform life on the planet. We may alternately fear that such experiences were merely tricks of the body chemistry. Then we find ourselves again wondering if they are indicators of spiritual progress along a particular path and we wait, anticipating events that will further confirm a newly emerging worldview.

In the meantime, we develop disciplines around our beliefs, convincing ourselves that such experiences derive from our merit or lack thereof. Like the superstitious behaviour of lab pigeons fed intermittently for no particular reason, we create cause-and-effect scenarios. We engage in endless speculation with other seekers, even arguing adamantly over matters of belief because our heart or gut or head tells us something is true and their heart or gut or head tells them something else is true. Then, sometimes, someone else points out that we’re merely blindfolded and describing different parts of the elephant.

Or, we don’t engage in the debates because we’ve done that mentally with ourselves before and we see nothing new on offer, besides, some things aren’t about words, no matter how articulately you express them, and it’s easy to be suspicious of those who sell you something counter-intuitive simply because they’re clever with words.

Do we ever hear about mystics who spent a lifetime searching only to end life disappointed? Surely there are those who do not find what they’re seeking before they pass. There must be others too who never fully understand what they’re actually yearning for and probably those who grow enough in the process of seeking to realise what they sought wasn’t worth the effort.

And what if you were to develop a range of godlike paranormal abilities? Would that make you more important or special than you would have otherwise been? Would it mean you would be sought as a wise one or would you risk being just a “resounding gong"; "a clanging cymbal”? And if you could, would it mean you’d be prepared to enable the rest of humanity to attain what you had attained or would you, like Daedalus, envious that your student might surpass you, hoard it in order to maintain power and status?

CFTraveler
20th August 2010, 02:25 PM
You've just described me, or rather, my life process, except for this:

And what if you were to develop a range of godlike paranormal abilities?
But if I did,

Would that make you more important or special than you would have otherwise been? Would it mean you would be sought as a wise one or would you risk being just a “resounding gong"; "a clanging cymbal”? And if you could, would it mean you’d be prepared to enable the rest of humanity to attain what you had attained or would you, like Daedalus, envious that your student might surpass you, hoard it in order to maintain power and status? I don't think I'd be so influential, in fact the idea of being influential is kind of scary. What if I'm wrong, and others drink the Koolaid?

Korpo
20th August 2010, 03:03 PM
What if I'm wrong, and others drink the Koolaid?

Then they'll learn the lesson of blindly following something without doing their own thinking, I'd say. Everything furthers, but there can be a fair deal of suffering.

Don't rule out the possibility of "godlike paranormal abilities" just yet. ;)

Cheers,
Oliver

ButterflyWoman
20th August 2010, 03:25 PM
What if I'm wrong, and others drink the Koolaid?
I can think of worse things. Just off the top of my head, what if you're actually RIGHT, but your followers and their followers and THEIR followers try to record the stuff you said and end up getting it all mostly wrong and then making up even more crap, attributing it to you, and founding a religion or philosophy on "your" teachings, when they're actually just entirely clueless about what you really said and who you really were?

That would be worse than being "wrong".

Korpo
20th August 2010, 03:50 PM
That would be worse than being "wrong".

Nope. Just the default. :lol:

Oliver

Beekeeper
20th August 2010, 09:17 PM
I don't think I'd be so influential, in fact the idea of being influential is kind of scary. What if I'm wrong, and others drink the Koolaid?

What they said. :D

Sinera
20th August 2010, 10:03 PM
...what if you're actually RIGHT, but your followers and their followers and THEIR followers try to record the stuff you said and end up getting it all mostly wrong and then making up even more crap, attributing it to you, and founding a religion or philosophy on "your" teachings, when they're actually just entirely clueless about what you really said and who you really were?
I think that is how most types of monotheist scripture-based religions came about. Many early speakers, prophets, mystics said and did right things. I am sure, provided he really existed, that Jesus was a wise person, a healer too, possibly.
But do we know what he really said and did? The message gets changed, edited, distorted. So with many other sages' teachings and messages throughout history. Their legacy is misinterpreted and misused deliberately by religious fanatics writing the scriptures and manipulating the folks, even steering the fate of whole peoples.

.... and generations over generations of readers of these scriptures are made cult followers and have to drink the Koolaid every day with which they were brought up from the cradle ...

(or follow the sandal, respectively ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf76lynPdZc :mrgreen: )

Tutor
21st August 2010, 12:59 AM
nice sermon, i am in there. :wink:

ButterflyWoman
21st August 2010, 03:57 AM
I think that is how most types of monotheist scripture-based religions came about.
Not just monotheist. Buddhism has a similar thing going on, all kinds of stuff attributed to the Buddha, but how much of it did he really say or indicate? We can't know.

Sinera
21st August 2010, 06:06 PM
I think that is how most types of monotheist scripture-based religions came about.
Not just monotheist. Buddhism has a similar thing going on, all kinds of stuff attributed to the Buddha, but how much of it did he really say or indicate? We can't know.
Right, I agree. And also there is in some countries a lot of reverence practice of people praying & bowing to Buddha shrines that absolutely bears no difference to Western exoteric religions' idolatries and personality cults.

Btw, I am not a Buddhist at all, don't get deceived by my funny avatar monk :evil: . I am - like most here I assume - an unaffiliated spiritual freethinker. So for me this not at all a "theological" bone of contention from a personal denominational standpoint.

Still, by this I indicate that I generally like Eastern teachings much more, since they are in their core more esoteric than exoteric, and thus nearer to the "truth" (whatever that is ... ) that gets more and more confirmed by "new edge science's" findings. Moreover, the Eastern teachings are less "anthropomorphic", and so for me "less childish" and more "grown-up" (ok, let's forget about all those multitudes of Hindu gods now for a moment :wink: ).

About the personality cults and "human sons of gods": right, no one knows what is historical and what not. But I referred to the monotheists in this context because I have the impression that they are more "holy scripture"-inclined in a literal way.
Of course, Hindus have their vast corpus of the Vedanta and Upanishads and Budhhists have their written scriptures as well, but they rely more on "word of mouth" teachings and experience / PRACTICE (meditation etc) instead of dogmatic teachings. They do not strike you with their holy "big books" on your heads as the Western kinds to, at least that's my impression.

If you're interested, a while ago I read "Christ Conspiracy - The Greatest Story Ever Sold" by Acharya S. aka D.M. Murdoch. She also sparked off a lot of controversy since her findings were the basis of that Zeitgeist movie that was internet-hyped a few years ago - following a wave of heavy debunking attempts by theists and fundamentalists, there's a lot of it to be found on Youtube.
It's of course highly controversial what she has to say, but also very interesting and many claims and interpretations seem intriguing. In this book, she decidedly doubts the historicity of all those sons of gods. I do not agree with her on this point since I think that there is a core of truth and that these people may have existed, but for me the important issue is what we talked about here too: to understand what was and is "made of them" by religious scribes, prophets and preachers in the course of their "deification". The way these deifications work and the fact that it is a similar process in many religions is in my view a valid point she makes.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/sunsofgod.htm

free Zeitgeist movie companion ebook:
http://files.meetup.com/13030/Zeitgeistebook.pdf

a speech:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 679691710# (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5672009516679691710#)