Dreaming vs. Dream-making, Etc.

[dreamosis]

As you're reading this right now, you're not consciously projecting the image of the computer screen or the colors and words on it. You consciously chose, probably, to log on to the AD forums, but your body or subconscious is assembling your visual experience.

And in most lucid dream, it's the same way. You are consciously directing what you do, but the subconscious is modeling the sensed environment.

The lines between a personal, subconsciously-generated environment and a collective, subconsciously-generated environment or a quasi-permanent astral locale -- which may or may not be dependent on the human collective unconscious -- are blurry at best. However, throughout each of these, one thing is typically certain: your perception is automatic.

The only type of sense experience that I can think of in which your perception is not automatic is visualization. People don't generally automatically perceive a consciously visualized thought, whether that means closing your eyes and imagining a tetrahedron or remembering the melody of Beethoven's Fifth or a lover's smell. Of course, sometimes we do; for some strong visualizers thoughts are automatically perceived -- that is, they have the same relative solidity, or realness, as automatic physical perception or a vivid dream.

Yesterday I asked myself if I could remember a dream experience in which perception wasn't automatic... Asking myself this I realized that I visualize in dreams all the time. My perception of the dreaming environment is automatic (subconscious on my part), but I consciously create items, and sometimes landscapes, inside of lucid dreaming states.

Until now I've tended to think of that creative capacity as merely a part of lucid dreaming, but isn't it fundamentally different from lucid dreaming?

When your body is awake and you're visualizing, you're consciously directing your thoughts and you're consciously projecting, or modeling, the images. Again, you may or may not be actually seeing what you're visualizing... That's where talking about this gets tricky. For me, my visualizations aren't usually in full-blown color with three dimensions. Very often, though, I can vaguely see what I'm visualizing in dull colors or flashes -- or I become as involved in it, in terms of attention, as I might with ordinary life or a dream, and so I'm not concerned second-to-second with visual modeling.

What's happening in the latter experience? You could say that I've "let go," I've successfully recruited my subconscious to participate, etc....

...I can remember one lucid dream right now in which I was between dreams in a void. I didn't wake up, but I didn't begin dreaming. I was simply floating in a dark space. This has happened a lot, and sometimes I can feel my body and sometimes I can't during these times. Anyway, in this instance I assembled a dream -- although I can't say I consciously created each aspect. I wanted to keep dreaming so I willed another dream into being. I didn't know what I was doing, I was just winging it. Out of the black I saw red and blue blobs of light, so I focused on those, and then shortly the blobs coalesced into a quite artificial-looking dream environment. It looked very much like a videogame landscape.

Since I didn't consciously intend all the details, I have to conclude that my subconscious was at work. Also, I didn't consciously intend red and blue blobs of light, they simply appeared as I tried to will a dream into being. Still, this is the most visualization-like experience I can remember having while I was asleep.

Has anybody else had the experience of visualizing while asleep? "Dream-making" instead of dreaming?

From what I understand, Tibetan dream yoga is focused on what I would call dream-making -- a kind of ultimate control -- in which perception is voluntary instead of automatic.

Questions:

* Is being able to clearly see your visualizations the effect of getting your subconscious mind to project the image your conscious mind is focused on? Or is it something else?

* Is "Stopping the World," as described in the Castaneda books, the result of getting your subconscious mind to stop automatically projecting the sense imagery of your physical environment?

Quandaries:

* On the surface, waking perception and lucid dreaming seem to be the same thing. They're both loosely situations in which you are consciously directing your experience, but your perception (with notable exceptions in LDs) is automatic/subconscious. The most obvious way in which they're not the same thing, though, is that one happens when the body is awake and one happens when the body is asleep. However, lucid dreaming is possible when the body is awake. "Dreaming" is not necessarily dependent on the body sleeping. Dreaming does not mean sleeping. If that's the case, then the concept of a dream as a bodily process in which the body/brain, with its senses shut down, draws on memories to model a virtual environment is incomplete.

* Some people appear to need the body to be asleep to access altered states, or have varieties of sense experiences that don't include the physical environment but may be purely mental or involve other worlds. For others it doesn't particularly matter what state the body is in.

[CFTraveler]

This is not really an answer to any of your questions, just a comment on differing worldviews-

On the surface, waking perception and lucid dreaming seem to be the same thing. I'm with you so far.

They're both loosely situations in which you are consciously directing your experience, but your perception (with notable exceptions in LDs) is automatic/subconscious. Differing worldview: Waking perception is not consciously directing my experience, it's sometimes consciously reacting to it- while my subconscious is unconsciously directing it. If I make a conscious effort to direct it I may be successful, but it depends on how closely my subconscious and conscious mind are aligned.


The most obvious way in which they're not the same thing, though, is that one happens when the body is awake and one happens when the body is asleep. Okay..


However, lucid dreaming is possible when the body is awake. "Dreaming" is not necessarily dependent on the body sleeping. Dreaming does not mean sleeping. If that's the case, then the concept of a dream as a bodily process in which the body/brain, with its senses shut down, draws on memories to model a virtual environment is incomplete. I'm with you there, somewhat.

[dreamosis]

Differing worldview: Waking perception is not consciously directing my experience, it's sometimes consciously reacting to it- while my subconscious is unconsciously directing it. If I make a conscious effort to direct it I may be successful, but it depends on how closely my subconscious and conscious mind are aligned.

I wouldn't say we have a differing worldview here...I spoke too generally. In the common understanding, when we're physically awake, we're "conscious." The spiritual seeker, though, notices that what passes for consciousness is often something far less.

A lot of my life is being subconsciously directed too.

The uncareful examiner of dreams may lump them into two broad categories: non-lucid and lucid. If you do this, though, you miss the subtle shades of dreams with some self-awareness/consciousness/lucidity that don't have "full" lucidity. What I usually term a non-lucid dream may have some aspects of control, of reflection on the fact that I'm in a simulation or non-physical realm.

Lucidity is a matter of a "critical mass" of consciousness, or self-awareness, not a black-and-white matter of having it or not having it. Likewise, living consciously is a matter of a certain threshold value of self-presence, not an all-or-nothing affair of either being subject to the mechanization of the ego mind or free from it.

Where we might be miscommunicating is in our conceptions of the "subconscious." To me, the subconscious includes egoic fragments, and so aligning my conscious mind with my subconscious in that sense might be counterproductive. On the other hand, turning my conscious mind on those fragments allows me to see their influence in my emotions, thoughts, and actions -- which allows me to see other ways of responding to life that might be more beneficial.

However, my conception of the subconscious includes what I could call refined or ennobled ego too. Those aspects of our temporal personality that are characterized by higher reason, respect, and honor. My conception of it also includes, or connects with, the collective subconscious in its negative and positive aspects. And it includes an idea of the subconscious as liason between our linear waking mind and our Higher Self.

That lucid and less-lucid living is possible is humbling to me. It shows me that I shouldn't take my own wakefulness for granted in the same way I shouldn't take lucidity in a dream for granted. Both can lead to intense experiences of aliveness.

I would hold that when we're lucid while awake we're taking a tentative first step away from dreaming and toward dream-making.

[CFTraveler]

I agree with how you define the subconscious.
Not much to say, except *thumbs up*.

[dreamosis]

Thanks for the thumbs up.

...Out of frustration with the words ordinarily used to describe types of awareness, I decided to "jargonize" others I feel are more descriptive so I can keep exploring this train of thought.

For instance, I'm frustrated by the word "sleep" because it can simultaneously apply to the body and the mind. So, if I say "I was asleep," I usually mean that my body was passively resting, but I could be either mentally unconscious, semi-conscious, or conscious at the same time. Accordingly, I'm going to go on exploring this train of thought with the words "physioactive" and "physiopassive" to describe the state of the body. I might use alert or awake versus passive, but alert and awake overlap too much with the purely mental concept of being conscious.

A physioactive body is quite obviously active, maybe moving, and energized. A physiopassive body is resting, not moving, and is conserving energy.

To describe mental states I'll use conscious, semi-conscious, and subconscious. If you reflect on these types against your experiences of lucid, semi-lucid, and non-lucid dreams, then you'll know what I mean.

I'm also confounded right now by the ever-mysterious word "dream," so I'm appropriating the word "simulation" instead. This isn't to say that all dreams are unreal, but it better describes what a dream is in the larger context of types of awareness.

To describe types of awareness I'm using the terms perception, perceptualization, and simulation.

"Perceptualization" is meant to be a substitute for visualization. I dislike visualization right now because of its "visual" component. Imagination is equally frustrating because of its "image" (also sensorially visual) component. I could say "sensualization," but that sounds sexual. "Sensorialization" is weird-sounding.

Okay, so here's a list of experiences of awareness that I'm contemplating right now. The first word (either physioactive or physiopassive) describes a bodily state; the second word (conscious, semi-conscious, or subconscious) describes a mental state; the third word (perception, perceptualization, or simulation) describes a type or mode of awareness.


Physioactive Conscious Perception
Physioactive Semi-Conscious Perception
Physioactive Subconscious Perception

Physioactive Conscious Perceptualization
Physioactive Semi-Conscious Perceptualization
Physioactive Subconscious Perceptualization

Physioactive Conscious Simulation
Physioactive Semi-Conscious Simulation
Physioactive Subconscious Simulation

Physiopassive Conscious Perception
Physiopassive Semi-Conscious Perception
Physiopassive Subconscious Perception

Physiopassive Conscious Perceptualization
Physiopassive Semi-Conscious Perceptualization
Physiopassive Subconscious Perceptualization

Physiopassive Conscious Simulation
Physiopassive Semi-Conscious Simulation
Physiopassive Subconscious Simulation


This isn't a complete list because the modal possibilities of awareness are infinite, existing on a continuum instead of in distinct categories. Nonetheless, creating arbitrary categories is instructive and shows how different states of consciousness relate -- and may possibly show "routes" to the states of the consciousness you want to produce.

A weakness of this list is that the body is not either physioactive or physiopassive -- there are shades of gray between being highly physioactive (a full sprint) and highly physiopassive (deep sleep). Also, physiopassive could mean the pleasant heaviness of intentional deep relaxation from tensing and releasing muscles, or the catalepsy of REM, or the laxity of Theta and Delta.

Also, physioactive conscious perception can have characteristics of other modes of awareness. You can have physioactive conscious perception, i.e. a body-awake, mind-awake, five-sense experience, with a perceptualization appearing within your experience. Example: You're awake and looking at your wall and a black dot that you're intentionally visualizing appears in your field of vision. Visualization, or perceptualization, couched within perception.

Explanations of some of the categories:

Physioactive Conscious Perception
Slowly and mindfully examining the bark of a physical tree.

Physioactive Subconscious Perception
Accidentally driving to work instead of the movie theatre on a Saturday, i.e. "being on autopilot."

Physioactive Conscious Perceptualization
Visualizing during a meditation.

Physioactive Subconscious Perceptualization
Daydreaming.

Physioactive Conscious Simulation
A lucid dream experienced while sitting up in a chair...Perhaps even being able to speak.

Physioactive Subconscious Simulation
An hallucination.

Physiopassive Conscious Perception
Astral sight while you're lying in bed.

Physiopassive Subconscious Perceptualization
"Daydreaming while asleep."

Physiopassive Conscious Simulation
A lucid dream.

Physiopassive Semi-Conscious Simulation
A semi-lucid dream.

Physiopassive Subconscious Simulation
A non-lucid dream.

Edit:

A better term for "perceptualization," since the word is rather bulky, could be either "formation" or "construction," after the concepts of thoughtform and mental construct. In this sense, "formation" would be thoughtforming or "construction" would be creating a construct. Not every visualization, daydream, or fantasy creates a permanent thoughtform, of course, but visualization/perceptualization could be said to be thoughtforming.

Thoughtforming is distinct from simulating, in that the first is the creation of a mental object or picture and the second is the generation of an immersive mental environment. Thoughtforming is distinct from perception in that the first is the creation of a mental object or picture while the second is the mental represenation of a physical environment.

[dreamosis]

I decided on the term fantasmation as a better alternative to visualization/imagination/perceptualization.

I'm coining it based on the word fantasm, following definitions 2, 3, and 4.



fan-tasm
–noun
1. an apparition or specter.
2. a creation of the imagination or fancy; fantasy.
3. a mental image or representation of a real object.
4. an illusory likeness of something.


An archaic spelling is "phantasm," but I like fantasm because it stands apart from phantom and closer to fantasy, which is what visualizing or imagining essentially is.

Also, note that fantasm = thoughtform.

My invented definition:



fan-tas-ma-tion /fan-taz-MA-tion/
-noun
1. the act of fantasizing using any or all senses
2. the creation of mental representations of real or non-existent objects
3. the intentional or unintentional creation of thoughtforms


Again, I'm reaching for a new term because of the visual-sense bias of words like visualize and imagine.

Also, lying in bed last night/this morning, I had these intuitions:

* perception is a mode of awareness relative to a vehicle of consciousness, be it the physical body, the etheric body, the astral body, or the spirit

* the spirit is the least "vehicle-like" of all vehicles of consciousness; its perception is the least limited

* the core of spirit isn't a vehicle at all, but transcends spacetime and is infinitely interconnected with the totality of being

* fantasmation is a mode of awareness based in a body beyond the etheric; its effects are most immediately felt in the etheric and then the physical body; it could be said to be purely mental

* simulation is a mode of awareness that mimics perception; it's also generated from beyond the etheric

* perception is the mental representation of an environment (be it physical, etheric, astral, or spiritual)

* simulation is a projected, immersive mental environment

* simulation is also a projected representation of things, beings, or environments belonging to a different order than the environment currently being perceived

* simulation can also be a projected represenation of a shared mental environment, like the astral

* what is perception at one "level" of being is simulation to another, i.e., auric sight experienced in the physical body is a simulation of etheric reality; real-time sight is a simulation of physical reality -- this perhaps explains why beings like astral snakes are perceived differently with clairvoyance, or in a dream, versus being perceived in an out-of-body environment

* simulations may be the result of both our minds trying to represent that which we lack schemata for, and the result of perceptual bleed -- that is, perceiving part of another layer of reality while phaselocked into another

* from the perspective of spirit, the astral, etheric, and physical are all simulations

* our individuated spirit projects the simulation of the astral, etheric, and physical

* the Divine projects the simulation of individuated spirit and matter/energy/spacetime

[CFTraveler]

This is very good. I want to link the AD pedia to it, I'm just not sure under what heading. Just a comment, you can ignore this. :)

[dreamosis]

Cool! Fine by me.

And here, an updated and admittedly incomplete and arbitrary list of the experiences of awareness:

(*Notes:

The first word in this list refers to the state of the body, the second word refers to the state of the mind, the third word refers to modes of awareness originating in the spirit.

Perception is a mental representation of an environment automatically generated by the spirit's phasing with a bodily vehicle of consciousness.

Fantasmation is the creation of -- in the mind-field by the spirit, or by the spirit in tandem with the mind, or by the mind itself* -- mental representations of real or non-existent objects or environments, and can include the creation of independent thoughtforms.

Simulation is the projection, by the spirit, of an immersive, mental environment that mimics perception; also, it's the representation of objects, beings, or environments belonging to another order of being than the one with which you're currently in phase. It can also be a projected representation of a shared mental environment.

Remember that perception can include fantasmation and simulation; simulation can include perception and fantasmation; fantasmation is perceived, derived from either memories of perception and simulation or from creativity, and can approach or equal simulation in effect -- but the point at which fantasmation mimics perception as a limited or immersive experience, it effectively becomes simulation. Generally speaking, as far as human beings are concerned, fantasmation occurs within perception and simulation. In hopefully plainer words, "fantasmation mimicking perception" means that a thought is directly perceived as a sense-object.

*These distincitions may hint at the true meaning of the terms "conscious," "semi-conscious," and "subconscious.")


Physioactive Conscious Perception
Physioactive Semi-Conscious Perception
Physioactive Subconscious Perception

Physioactive Conscious Fantasmation
Physioactive Semi-Conscious Fantasmation
Physioactive Subconscious Fantasmation

Physioactive Conscious Simulation
Physioactive Semi-Conscious Simulation
Physioactive Subconscious Simulation

Physiopassive Conscious Perception
Physiopassive Semi-Conscious Perception
Physiopassive Subconscious Perception

Physiopassive Conscious Fantasmation
Physiopassive Semi-Conscious Fantasmation
Physiopassive Subconscious Fantasmation

Physiopassive Conscious Simulation
Physiopassive Semi-Conscious Simulation
Physiopassive Subconscious Simulation

[wstein]

The mind makes a construction of its model of reality. When awake, the active model is based on what your body's physical senses are feeding the brain. When dreaming, your subconscious mind is also supplying the sensory context. When lucid dreaming, your conscious mind joins the subconscious in supplying the reality context. When OBE your extra sensory perceptions are used in the creation of the model of reality. Your mind is capable of handling more than one model at a time but not very well. The apparent sensory overlays become confusing very quickly. I have managed 3 reality contexts at a time.

Construction of a world projection is not so automatic. Most functioning people are sufficiently skilled to do it while awake or while dreaming. I have 'taken' people on OBE trips. Most of them are not able to turn their (extra-) sensory experiences into world projection, visual or otherwise. FYI, metaphysical energy helps with this a lot.


Until now I've tended to think of that creative capacity as merely a part of lucid dreaming, but isn't it fundamentally different from lucid dreaming? Altering dreams is a distinct skill from lucid dreaming. Lucid dreaming only means that you are aware that you are dreaming. There are other skills used in advanced lucid dreaming like activating the watcher who watches the dream from the outside (does not participate). Being 'lucid' and using of some (maybe all) advanced skills can be done while awake also [still working on wholesale alteration while awake].


* Is being able to clearly see your visualizations the effect of getting your subconscious mind to project the image your conscious mind is focused on? Or is it something else? More probably a function of visual 'recall'. Note that not everyone is visual. As indicated above the projection can come from a variety of sources. While the conscious mind usually makes use of this projection, it is not limited to it. For instance, much abstract thinking has no projection.


* Is "Stopping the World," as described in the Castaneda books, the result of getting your subconscious mind to stop automatically projecting the sense imagery of your physical environment? More accurately, it's stopping the construction and projection of the world model for the conscious. This effectively makes you consciously unaware of what your senses are indicating. Stopping the world does not have a lot of effect on the subconscious.


* On the surface, waking perception and lucid dreaming seem to be the same thing. They're both loosely situations in which you are consciously directing your experience, but your perception (with notable exceptions in LDs) is automatic/subconscious. The most obvious way in which they're not the same thing, though, is that one happens when the body is awake and one happens when the body is asleep. However, lucid dreaming is possible when the body is awake. "Dreaming" is not necessarily dependent on the body sleeping. Dreaming does not mean sleeping. If that's the case, then the concept of a dream as a bodily process in which the body/brain, with its senses shut down, draws on memories to model a virtual environment is incomplete. Perception is perception, regardless of the source of the information it uses. Perception is independent of the body or the senses (for example, knowing).


* Some people appear to need the body to be asleep to access altered states, or have varieties of sense experiences that don't include the physical environment but may be purely mental or involve other worlds. For others it doesn't particularly matter what state the body is in. This has a lot to do with how your mind works and how much practice you have had. Most people are captivated by physical sensory input and are unable to deal with abstraction, dreams, or extra sensory experiences while their senses are active.

[dreamosis]

Construction of a world projection is not so automatic. Most functioning people are sufficiently skilled to do it while awake or while dreaming. I have 'taken' people on OBE trips. Most of them are not able to turn their (extra-) sensory experiences into world projection, visual or otherwise. FYI, metaphysical energy helps with this a lot.

Yes, I've had difficulty perceiving out-of-body...I've had to "switch on" my double's senses -- through intent. And sometimes my perception is sharper than others. However, OOB perception maintained with a sort of soft concentration, is much like physical perception for me in that it just happens. That's why I say it's automatic. Maintaining fantasmation, whether clearly sensually perceived or not, takes conscious effort. Perceiving OOB I wouldn't say takes effort; rather, it seems to take energy (like you say) and a kind of mental poise when the perception is shaky. With lots of energy, OOB perception is much like in-body perception: it just happens.



There are other skills used in advanced lucid dreaming like activating the watcher who watches the dream from the outside (does not participate)...

I'm curious by what you mean by "activating the watcher."




* Is being able to clearly see your visualizations the effect of getting your subconscious mind to project the image your conscious mind is focused on? Or is it something else? More probably a function of visual 'recall'.

I'm not sure what you mean by visual recall.



For instance, much abstract thinking has no projection.

This makes sense. The mind may store the concept of "apple" as a fantasm of an apple that includes the look, feel, and taste of an apple, but how does the mind represent the concept of "love"? From a clairvoyant perspective, the mind's concept of love would be a networked series of images; from an empathic perspective, perhaps, it's a web of sensations and emotions. From the broadest perspective, the concept is a specially configured store of energy that can be represented from a variety of perceptual angles (i.e., through sight, sound, touch, knowing, etc.)

To the extent that our concept of love is shaped through our experience on the physical plane, the concept is bound to be entangled with physical sense impressions.

How a thought is projected to us, while phased with the physical body, may depend on the quality of the phase. Ordinarily, I'd say, thoughts aren't projected onto our mental model of reality at all, but remain invisible/insensible (although they do have an effect in the body). When a thought is projected, or simulated, within our mental perceptual model of physical reality, it probably happens because our attention -- a property of the spirit -- is overlapping in phase between the physical body and a higher body. It could happen too, though, in the case of damage to or an abnormality in the brain.


More accurately, ["Stopping the World" is] stopping the construction and projection of the world model for the conscious. This effectively makes you consciously unaware of what your senses are indicating. Stopping the world does not have a lot of effect on the subconscious.

Hmmm, language is getting in the way for me here. Throughout this thread I've both been referring to the "subconscious" as a state and as a thing. As I state I understand subconscious, you might say, as "incoherent consciousness" whereas conscious would be "coherent consciousness." As a thing I understand it to be...well, whatever aspect of our mind-field that isn't governed by self-present, or coherent, conscious attention.

I might define perception as subconscious process because, again, it happens automatically -- that is, without the need of conscious direction. This makes the most sense from a purely materialist perspective: bodily processes like heart rate, digestion, immunity are all "subconscious." Those processes happen automatically, as a part of the autonomic nervous system. From the materialist viewpoint, seeing is automatic. It isn't something you have to try to do.

Yet, I acknowledge that this is a limited viewpoint. I'm inclined to define perception as "super-conscious," since as I stated earlier, I intuit that perception, fantasmation, and simulation are modes of awareness originating in the spirit. More on this later... There are other possibilities. And it keeps occuring to me that, from the widest perspective, all is simulation. Perception, if defined as a mental representation of an environment, is therefore only an internal simulation of the environment -- whether that perception is of the physical realm, the astral realm, or of totally self-closed virtual realm.


Perception is perception, regardless of the source of the information it uses. Perception is independent of the body or the senses (for example, knowing).

Maybe the full truth is that, in the Zen traditon, "At first, perception is perception, then perception is simulation, and then perception is perception again."

Perception is perception, regardless of the source of information it uses... Yes, although for me the perception of water in the physical realm is not equal to the perception of water in a lucid dream. I've experimented with this. Like a lot of people, I've had lucid dreams of incredible realness, but I've also noticed the cracks of highly convincing simulations. For instance, I've experimented with drinking water in a lucid dream, and it just isn't the same experience as drinking water in the physical body. No matter how real it seems, something is off about it. The best way I can describe it is that dream water is "more electric" than it should be and "less wet." I can feel its wetness, its coolness, taste its purity, but it just isn't the same...

I'm not sure how to respond to the idea that perception is independent of the body or senses. I want to agree with it because, like I said above, I see perception as originating in the spirit. Perhaps, though, it's truer to say that, while the spirit is indispensible to it, it's co-created between the spirit and mind, or spirit, mind, and body (I allow for both since it's possible to not have a body).

Edit:
It makes sense that OOB perception is aided by energywork. In-body, physical perception takes energy, but we rarely think about this. And when physical energy runs low, as in the case of dehydration or starvation, perception is seriously disrupted.

[wstein]

There are other skills used in advanced lucid dreaming like activating the watcher who watches the dream from the outside (does not participate)... I'm curious by what you mean by "activating the watcher." During most dreams, you are a participant. Thus when you become lucid, you are experiencing the dream first person (participating in it). The watcher does not participate in the dream, rather it watches from the outside as if watching play. Making alterations to the dream is much easier from this perspective. It's possible to do both at the same time, be in the dream and watch at the same time. I use the term 'activate the watcher' to mean that when you become lucid in a dream, you 'wake up' the watcher consciousness in addition to your participation in the dream.

The watcher can be invoked when awake also. It's kind of like watching over your own shoulder to observe your actions and more informatively, watch your motivations.




* Is being able to clearly see your visualizations the effect of getting your subconscious mind to project the image your conscious mind is focused on? Or is it something else? More probably a function of visual 'recall'. I'm not sure what you mean by visual recall. Visual recall is most easily recognized when remembering. When you remember something, some of the sensory experiences are replayed. Especially for visual thinkers, this includes the images associated with the experience. You are seeing it again. The images displayed are not always what you are focused on.

[CFTraveler]

The watcher can be invoked when awake also. It's kind of like watching over your own shoulder to observe your actions and more informatively, watch your motivations.
It's the way I stay 'sane' or what passes for sane for me.

[dreamosis]

I use the term 'activate the watcher' to mean that when you become lucid in a dream, you 'wake up' the watcher consciousness in addition to your participation in the dream.

You know, I've had a handful of watcher experiences, but I've never specifically tried to "activate the watcher" in a lucid dream. Most of my watcher experiences have been vivid, non-lucid dreams in which I'm watching with the watcher as the watcher explains things to me. As I think about it, though, I can remember at least one example of a lucid dream in which the watcher spoke to me directly. It was literally a God-like voice in the air, from a presence that understood what I was thinking and feeling. It spoke to give me insight.

Do you have any specific way of activating the watcher? Other than just calling on it?

...It's weird what's coming back to me as I think about this. I remember another lucid dream in which I suddenly dissolved into the environment, and was the environment for a moment. Then I re-materialized myself, finding that a bit more comfortable. Dreaming from the watcher perpsective probably takes some getting used to. Although I guess a part of us does it all the time...



The watcher can be invoked when awake also. It's kind of like watching over your own shoulder to observe your actions and more informatively, watch your motivations.

Awareness of awareness...


Visual recall is most easily recognized when remembering. When you remember something, some of the sensory experiences are replayed. Especially for visual thinkers, this includes the images associated with the experience. You are seeing it again. The images displayed are not always what you are focused on.

For me, most of the time when I'm remembering -- like a passage from a book for example -- I'm remembering the arrangement of the text on the page and roughly where the words were that I'm remembering. Although, if I have to memorize long tracts, I find this gets in the way. It allows me to recall well, but it doesn't allow me to recall as fast as learning something by sound. Memorizing by sound takes longer for me, but allows faster recall, and I retain it longer. Memorizing visually takes a short amount of time, but makes recall slower and I retain less of it over time. That's how it seems, anyway. It's probably an individual quirk. I've done a lot of acting and so I've done a lot of memorizing. I began noticing at one point, as I was acting, that I was sometimes accessing my lines visually -- by looking for the page of the script I was on in my mind.

Dreaming versus dream-making...

Dream-making requires some degree of watcherness. To make a dream, you must be aware that you're dreaming for one, but also aware of the different "dream pressures" ready to manifest. This is coming from my intuition so I'm just going to follow it...It might be gobbledygook.

As the body rests and the dreaming process begins, there are already a number of "dream pressures" in the mind-field. They needn't be called "dream pressures" really because is actuality they're ordinary emotional/mental pressures. The first priority in dreaming is processing these pressures. For people who live high-stress, spiritually shallow lives, most dreams that they have -- if they remember them at all -- are processing-type dreams. Somehow, the early stages of dreaming, are the Third Eye turned toward one's own mind-field. Clairvoyance is difficult without an active dreaming practice because without it attempts to use the Third Eye will be dominated by energy-material that hasn't been processed in dreams.

A regular meditation and energywork practice deepens dreams because the person is entering sleep with less energy-material to process -- and is therefore freer to dream at deeper levels.

But back to the pressures...Without perspective on your own mental pressures, dream-making -- and, by extension, dream control -- will tend to be like a weird science experiment. True control comes from knowing yourself.

[wstein]

Do you have any specific way of activating the watcher? Other than just calling on it? Not really.

A subtle point, you should be able to be the watcher (first person), not just have it be present. Of course if you are on conscious only at the dream level, the watcher would appear as you describe it. Being the watcher is kind of like playing god to the dream. Maintaining both first person views simultaneously is where is gets 'interesting' (and really important if you activate the watcher while awake).



The watcher can be invoked when awake also. It's kind of like watching over your own shoulder to observe your actions and more informatively, watch your motivations. Awareness of awareness... If you want to kill some brain cells, you can activate a watcher of the watcher. Maintaining 3 levels at a time requires extreme focus.

[dreamosis]

Three levels at the same time...

We are spirit, mind, and body; the dreamer, the character, and the dream; the perceiver, the fantasm, and the simulation; space, sun, and earth.

Reflecting on the idea of the watcher in dreams, who can either witness or participate, I realized that it's important to remember that fantasmation can occur either with the participation of spirit or without it. The watcher, or Perceiver, is the spinner of dreams, but allows its lower aspect to explore them without guidance. This is akin to a computer programmer building a program like the Sims and then letting its character alone, to interact with the program in all ways possible. A lucid dream isn't necessarily the character becoming the directly controlled avatar of the watcher, though. Spirit is the player, but the videogame metaphor breaks down when we realize that there are degrees of spiritual influence. And it's complicated further by realizing that it's the character who must reach toward the dreamer to gain its benign influence; although, occasionally, the dreamer seems to reach toward us.

That a lucid dream is not equal to total symbiosis with the dreamer implies that heightened awareness while in the physical is not equal to transcendence. This means that heightened awareness, while occuring through the work of spirit, is still a phenomenon of the mind. To gain the highest awareness is to completely merge the mind with the spirit.

The influence of the spirit cannot be grabbed, it must be received in a reaching, open palm.

Dream-making cannot be performed by the same part of us that lucid dreams; rather, the part of us that's lucid must merge with the part of us that's weaving the dream.

To effectively create within the dream (that is, fantasmate), we cannot only rely on the part of us that's lucid; rather, the conscious mind must temporarily "spread itself apart" to form fantasms. I seem to do this quite well reflexively in semi-lucid and non-lucid dreams. If I'm ever very afraid, my mind automatically creates tools and talismans for me. That it's generally easier for me in either a semi-conscious or subconscious state is telling.

Offhand, I'd say to successfully thoughtform (to coin a verb) in a lucid dream, you must in essence, willingly reduce your lucidity. This jives with reality creation principles, in particular the maxim that awareness repels or prevents. It also explains easily why dream-flying is difficult if you focus on it too much. Thoughtforming takes a kind of blurring of the mind. To be specific, I mean that creating a coherent thoughtform takes a blurring of the mind. I describe "conscious fantasmation" above, but it seems to me now that if fantasmation is too conscious, the energy will not congeal -- for a lack of a better description.

If you're following me, though, you can see that degrees of conscious fantasmation could be used to dissolve the unwanted products of semi- and subconcious fantasmation. Probably, though, using conscious fantasmation in this catabolic way would still be more effective if the mind/consciousness were slightly blurred (while aligned to the highest parts of itself, and the spirit).

Some of that's really vague, but I know it will become more specific as I sit with the concepts.

The whole idea of "blurring" or "spreading apart" the mind makes more concrete sense of the term Mystery for me. The Mystery is the spirit, of course, but it is experienced by scattering the mists of the mind.

[dreamosis]

Last night was full of what I would call "Physiopassive Semi-Conscious Perception."

Every once in a while, I'm aware of having been thinking all night. That is, I'll fall asleep with something on my mind and periodically surface from sleep realizing that my mind has been circling the same thoughts. I'll half-consciously engage in the process, then fall back asleep.

This is quite distinct from dreaming, although it often involves "daydreaming." I have to put that word in quotes because it happens when I'm physically fully or mostly asleep.

Sometimes these night-daydreams, these physiopassive fantasmations, border on being dreams. Usually they're not visual. I don't clearly see what my mind is thinking about it, but I'm much more involved in the imagination process than I would be if my body were fully active and awake. Very often I surface from these episodes feeling like I was dreaming, but then I realize I wasn't actually seeing anything. Other times, I'm not sure if I was having a visual experience or not -- as I become as involved in these experiences as I do dreams. I react to them like dreams.

Last night, though, I was aware of being somewhere between perception and fantasmation for a good deal of the night. I wasn't dreaming, not in the conventional sense. My body was passive, at rest, sleeping, but I was aware of lying in bed. I was "seeing" the room, my cat, my partner sleeping next to me, but it wasn't like real-time sight.
The best I can describe it is to say that I was "feel-seeing." It was like highly detailed empathy extended to everything around me. (Direct mind perception.)

I was either working things out on my own, receiving information, or both.

Some of it felt like night-daydreaming because I was, off and on, aware of thinking. The most striking feature of it all, though, was being able to sense my surroundings while my body was asleep (not through my etheric eye(s), but in some other way).

The information I got is now slipping away from me and is vague. It had to do with the fact that, in the lower realms, everything is a manifestation of difference or opposition, and that the Higher Self and "archangels" being energetically harmonized are usually not perceptible in the lower realms (although they're there...).

I felt like I was seeing through spirit. It wasn't seeing at all, but it wasn't blindness either.