breathing under water.

[pondini]

i've only had two lucid dreams that i was totally conscious in, and that were crystal clear. in the first one i was completely lucid (total waking consciousness in the dream) but it was only about 5 seconds long and consisted of me proclaiming 'ohhh, i'm going to have fun with this!!!' the second one happened last night and even though it, too, was very short (20 seconds or so) the content was pretty neat.

in the dream, i was at a friends house talking to him and his dad. they were snickering and passed me a note hand-written on the back of a matchbook cover. they expected me to laugh at the written joke, but all i could make out was a three letter word that i forget now. i fake-laughed as if i understood the joke, but then they wanted me to say it out loud. i examined the paper again and struggled with it. i thought i saw my name within the shifting and morphing letters when it occurred to me that this sort of thing (not being able to read written text) was indicative of being in a dream. with that realization i felt like i was now awake, and that i had 'missed the boat' because i didn't notice the TWO prompts i had been given. at the same time i realized this, i was displayed my friend and his dad in a small power-boat motoring away from the end of a dock on which i was standing. similar to being displayed on a giant movie screen, it was just like the end of some cheesy TV fishing show, complete with a translucent embossed video effect of the show's title, slowly shrinking in size along with their boat off into the distance (nothing proverbial about it, this was the boat i thought i had missed -the mind apparently has a sense of humor, or irony). i was already duped again into believing that i was back in the 'physical world' but i tried to focus/zoom-in on the show's title to determine what was what. after a moment of frustration with the illegible logo and text i just mentally said 'screw it' and i dove into the water to try and swim after them, only problem is i couldn't surface, i just kept going down into the dark water.
if it had not been for 'frank' and his mention of an under-water world he visited, i am 99% positive i would not have tried breathing down there. i think he said something like 'it's a peculiar sensation, breathing under water' but in my assessment it was a pretty big leap of faith to do so, even armed with frank's assurance! i have a feeling that frank often severely understated his experiences, but then again, scientists always seem to hold off on any display of astonishment. at any rate, the mind doesn't immediately let you know that you are safe, it makes you earn these experiences. it took 3-4 seconds (every pitiless second dragged a**) to begin feeling like you might be ok. and even then it was very hard to tell if i was breathing in, or out, or at all. the drug DMT produces this same confusion, but i digress... so, the trippy part for me, was that when i think about breathing under water i imagine just inhaling/exhaling water without bubbles, however, there were bubbles the whole time -both on the in, and the out breaths. that is why it was hard to tell which way i was breathing; the bubbling was very loud and produces tactile sensation within the lungs/mouth, in and out, with each breath. (i'd like to know if this is the way in which frank or anyone else experienced it.) ok, so as soon as i got comfortable with the breathing, i felt something hit my left hand. if you keep in mind that it's very dark down there and that i couldn't see jack s***, it seems obvious that i was supposed to think it was a large fish. i think it was my mind trying to re-create an incident that happened to my buddy drew, in hawaii -- he was boogie-boarding when something 'hit' his foot hard, and when he brought his leg up out of the water his flipper (that he cinched on tightly) was gone! anyway, my 'hit' only caused a startle that forced my consciousness to snap to my room where i lay in bed. i was looking up at strange protrusions in my ceiling, trying to identify them when i inadvertently opened my eyes, causing myself to exit the dream.


i apologize if any of you fell asleep and had your own dreams while reading this. i understand that listening to someone tell you their dream is bad enough, nevermind reading a dream. therefor, i didn't mean to bore everyone with all the details, i had to type this up for my log, so that explains the length.

i just wondered if anyone else has breathed under water in their lucid dreams, and if it was similar. also, it seems like my fears are often tested in peculiar ways, within my handful of experiences. i know this is normal, and the tests are never anything 'impassable,' but has anyone presented an easy-to-understand model of why this is such a trend in lucid dreams, OBEs, etc.?

thanks for reading.

[CFTraveler]

i just wondered if anyone else has breathed under water in their lucid dreams, and if it was similar. also, Years ago, only once, and I really wasn't lucid.

[Korpo]

Hello, pondini.

Bruce Moen reports of being tested in an exercise he calls "leaping" in his third book. The idea is to realise and become fully lucid of the fact that the environment is not only not the physical world (a point which you are taking in at the moment) but what you see is an interpretation generated by your own mind. So - it's the old cliche: There is no spoon! Eh, I mean water. ;)

You're just bit by bit accustoming your mind towards greater flexibility to what your senses perceive. First you decouple it slightly by stretching your expectations a little. Then you realise that the real interaction is completely a mind experience - that the pictures you see stem from your mind, not exactly the other way round. Kurt Leland emphasises this in his books - all you see in non-physical reality is a symbol or representation your mind has come up with to make sense of an energy/information/state of consciousness it has come in touch with.

Be well,
Oliver

[pondini]

Hello, pondini.

Bruce Moen reports of being tested in an exercise he calls "leaping" in his third book. The idea is to realise and become fully lucid of the fact that the environment is not only not the physical world (a point which you are taking in at the moment) but what you see is an interpretation generated by your own mind. So - it's the old cliche: There is no spoon! Eh, I mean water. ;) :) i was half-way through a book on buddhist philosophy when i thought 'hey, the screen-writers of the matrix stole it from the budda' lol.

but ok, i understand, the 'dream' is a training tool by which we can experiment without fear of failure -eaten by the shark, etc.- provided we accept our perceptions as illusory.
but knowing that the human body and brain seem to have a purpose for all it's inherent traits and functions, what then would be the purpose behind these tests moen calls 'leaping'? what is the mind's motive?



You're just bit by bit accustoming your mind towards greater flexibility to what your senses perceive. First you decouple it slightly by stretching your expectations a little. Then you realise that the real interaction is completely a mind experience - that the pictures you see stem from your mind, not exactly the other way round. Kurt Leland emphasises this in his books - all you see in non-physical reality is a symbol or representation your mind has come up with to make sense of an energy/information/state of consciousness it has come in touch with. it's also argued that our understanding of our perception of physical reality is also backwards, that the mind creates the physical reality around us, not the reverse -that physical reality and all it's objects and events were here first and the brain only perceives them via the five senses. in this light, one can imagine the motives of 'leaping' -in the dream world- to be a training mechanism for physical reality i.e. to perceive the universe as the illusion it is.

i'm sure this was not the conclusion you intended me to draw from your reply, but none-the-less it has given me something to ponder:)


thanks for the input, guys:)

[Tutor]

"Out of the pure Emptiness that is your deepest suchness,
all worlds arise. Your own impulse of looking has brought
forth the universe, and here it resides, in the vastness of all
space, which is to say, in the purity of your own primordial
awareness. This has been obvious all along; this you have
known, all along. Just this, and nothing more, just this."

Ken Wilber

not a Wilber fanatic, but his quoted quote quoting about says it.

to bleed the cut koan and dividedly give of it is to try and bring the absolute into the relative for others. folks instinctively will immediately cling to the relatives where stature of logical disposition dwells and competitive dissection of the many reigns. it is what it is...life

doesnt mean Wilber or any other does not have sight, just means that they heartedly gave from that sight to realize that they remain in it, as it is true that one's offspring is/are reflective of the author's once hidden fruit now dissected, juiced and miss taken by those whom within have no sight of their very own fruit.

one wonders why, but it is passionate love for one's kind. that one having been there and done must crucify this haughtiness and have it torn asunder. for no one person has sole right to it, as it is everyones in the making.

something like that...

tim

[ButterflyWoman]

I've had the "breathing under water" dream, but I wasn't lucid.

Generally (but not always, because dreams are very individual), dreams of being able to breathe under the water is a symbol of being able to survive even though you feel like you're "drowning". They seem to happen a lot for people who have been subjected to long-term, high-stress situations (in my case, a dysfunctional family).

Your dream, of course, has a lot of other elements. I'd pay attention to Korpo's suggestions. He's really good at dream interpretation. (I think so, anyway.)

[pondini]

tudor, i'm right with you on the wilber quote:) my views of the interdependent arising that created the universe -and all in it- is strait from the buddhist cannon of texts, but i often see parallels, adoptions and aggregation of it in much 'new age' thought. as far as the poetry(?) part of your post goes, i sort of understand it, but honestly, most poetry is lost on me:( i've received some new and unique thoughts and/or feeling from a few simple examples of poetry, unfortunately that is the extent of it.


dreams of being able to breathe under the water is a symbol of being able to survive even though you feel like you're "drowning". They seem to happen a lot for people who have been subjected to long-term, high-stress situationsHEH! that resonates with a few (three, actually) aspects of my life over the last 20 years:)

if korpo is a dream expert, i'm all ears!

hands down, WATER, in every menacing way possible, is my primary recurring dream, followed closely by dreams of fighting, and dreams of guilt that i'm not getting anything done at work. oh, there is one other thing i'm very curious about -i'll quote my log...

"my mouth is full of food i can't spit out, or other substances i attempt to spit out that are sometimes attached within me by what appears to be an organic cord. i can chew at it, stretch it as thin as thread and pull with all my strength, but it will NOT break. i've even tried sawing it back and forth on my teeth, to no avail."

like i said, i'm all ears:)

thanks, all!

[ButterflyWoman]

Totally off the top of my head. Might be way off. Take for what it's worth.



"my mouth is full of food i can't spit out, or other substances i attempt to spit out that are sometimes attached within me by what appears to be an organic cord.
You've been fed stuff you don't want to consume or digest, things you want to reject, but there are psychic(?) or emotional or other ties that stop you from rejecting it.


i can chew at it, stretch it as thin as thread and pull with all my strength, but it will NOT break.
You don't know how or seem unable to break the ties that keep the unwanted matter present, that keep you from being able to reject it.

[CFTraveler]

Just because of this thread, I dreamed last night I was swimming under water, making bubble patterns. They were sweet.

[pondini]

thanks for your post, CW:)

CFT, i'm glad you enjoyed it:)

i want to put emphasis on the 'bubbles' part again because i'm confused about it. as i said, i wouldn't have expected bubbles the whole time, maybe just for the first breath or two. i believe this to be true because i recall thinking about it a time ago after seeing a film -i think it was in a film- where a guy was wearing a helmet that was slowly filled with some sort of liquid oxygen. he panicked at first but then breathed normally with no bubbles.

i don't know, maybe i'm stuck on this because it goes against my logic, and one's dreams, LDs and APs are supposed to be a manifestation of one's own thoughts/logic.

btw, after reading how to AP from a LD, it seems more and more like that's what happened.

quote:
"stand still and adopt an air of mild curiosity about one "thing". It might be an area of colour, or any old object. I found it doesn't really matter. Anything just so it gathers your thoughts. Then the dream scenery will shift. Once you are sure you are no-longer dreaming, that is the time to start having a wander around and interacting with your surroundings. At which point there is no need to think about projecting, as you are projecting."

[Korpo]

i don't know, maybe i'm stuck on this because it goes against my logic, and one's dreams, LDs and APs are supposed to be a manifestation of one's own thoughts/logic.

Can you elaborate what you mean by this?

Be well,
Oliver

[pondini]

i was tempted to say 'i meant exactly what i said, and i'd only be parroting myself by trying to answer your question.' but i've read a few of your posts and i know you are a clever thinker, and i think i know what you are after with your question, so...

lately, i've read many claims that nearly everything in LDs and APs are manifestations of one's own thoughts -i used to believe (now i'm unsure) that OBEs/APs were trips into objectively real places and events (i've always thought dreams were subjective and inaccessible to others). so if what i've read 'lately' is correct, i should have breathed water in and out, not bubbles... which i did.

i'm sure this is a tired point, but it intrigues my curiosity:P

[CFTraveler]

I think it's a mixture of both- some collective stuff expressed subjectively, and your subconscious objectivized.

[Korpo]

Hello, pondini.


lately, i've read many claims that nearly everything in LDs and APs are manifestations of one's own thoughts

Hmmmm. The Tibetans believe that what state of consciousness you experience before dying is determining what kind of experience you have in the afterlife. Similarly your last thoughts before falling asleep seed what you dream. That seems to be the underlying mechanism behind Robert's suggestion to do affirmations before falling asleep. Also Beekeeper had some validation of this as far as I know.

So, is this what you mean?

Or do you mean: LDs are just things going on in my brain?

I really cannot discern what you're trying to say from what you're writing here. That's why I asked. I read the words just fine, I was just wondering about the implicit belief behind the statement which for me makes all the difference.


-i used to believe (now i'm unsure) that OBEs/APs were trips into objectively real places and events (i've always thought dreams were subjective and inaccessible to others).

Subjective? Yes. Inaccessible? I have my doubts.

I've read stories from people who had "visits" in dreams, and I think the line between dream and any other kind of experience is rather blurry, if not to say an arbitrary point on a continuum.

I had several dreams influenced by people who wanted something of me. I always particularly dislike these dreams, because I catch on to what is happening and it gives me the creeps. Nobody likes to be manipulated. I'd like to think that's just the subconscious of strong-willed people at work, but I don't know. I doubt it was consciously intended.

I'd say it's the energy forming itself into a dream as representation. These dreams had surroundings matching the context, so I think the whole dream would have been created to represent something. Then you are suddenly at the point where you dream about something somebody else thought... ;) Or your mind creates a dream to represent what it senses as a pull from another person on your energy field... Or you could ask yourself if I felt intuitively that pull before falling asleep which created the thought in the first place which I fell asleep with? :roll: ;)


so if what i've read 'lately' is correct, i should have breathed water in and out, not bubbles... which i did.

i'm sure this is a tired point, but it intrigues my curiosity:P

Well, look at it - it makes you ask questions. Actually quite interesting questions - you're trying to determine the accuracy of what you've read by making observations of your own dreaming process. But your dreaming process is not a simple mechanic, and maybe reality is more complex than the model you've read about allows for (true for most models).

Or you can even ask if your own dream life placed this clue in front of you to let you know that there is more to know, more to learn, more than models to it. You could see it as something similar to a lucidity clue. Lucidity clue is so illogical to trigger you into saying "Hey, I'm dreaming." And here you might be triggered into "This does not make logical sense given the model." in order to expand your model right away.

Be well,
Oliver

[pondini]

I think it's a mixture of both- some collective stuff expressed subjectively, and your subconscious objectivized.

i would need to see the mathematical formula for this:P




lately, i've read many claims that nearly everything in LDs and APs are manifestations of one's own thoughts

Hmmmm. The Tibetans believe that what state of consciousness you experience before dying is determining what kind of experience you have in the afterlife.

this makes sense when i consider all the NDE accounts i've read --how most-all people's experiences of the afterlife mirror their belief systems.


Similarly your last thoughts before falling asleep seed what you dream. That seems to be the underlying mechanism behind Robert's suggestion to do affirmations before falling asleep. Also Beekeeper had some validation of this as far as I know.

even before i began to believe in metaphysical ideas i believed your point to be true. it was a no-brainer as many of my dreams constituted much of my immediate thoughts. maybe frank's 'water-world' experience was on my mind right as i dozed off...? it's very possible as i read it and thought it over just a day or two before-hand.


So, is this what you mean?

Or do you mean: LDs are just things going on in my brain?

i am only trying to have an open mind toward the consensus of thought presented on this --and another-- message board. but maybe i have misunderstood the essence of the message. from what i've recently been reading, it seems like everyone is saying our dreams (and APs --to a certain extent) are just manifestations of our own thoughts. so, in retrospect i realize there is room in dreams and APs for exterior content to influence the experience. and many elements within dreams go against our typical logic --such as flying-- so one can only put so much stock into what they expect to happen in their dreams.
whatever it's mechanism, i believe the unexpected nature of the event made the experience much more interesting.



-i used to believe (now i'm unsure) that OBEs/APs were trips into objectively real places and events (i've always thought dreams were subjective and inaccessible to others).

Subjective? Yes. Inaccessible? I have my doubts.

LOL. i knew someone would jump on me for that bit about dreams being 'inaccessible' to outside forces:P i thought of adding the words 'for the most-part' to it, but i thought that might further convolute the statement. oddly enough, i wasn't even thinking about dead relatives/etc., i was thinking of how our higher-selves might possibly be the architects of some of our dreams. robert monroe spoke about this in one of his books and it's always resonated with me... especially after examining many of my dreams through the lens of that theory.



so if what i've read 'lately' is correct, i should have breathed water in and out, not bubbles... which i did.

i'm sure this is a tired point, but it intrigues my curiosity:P

...you can even ask if your own dream life placed this clue in front of you to let you know that there is more to know, more to learn, more than models to it. You could see it as something similar to a lucidity clue. Lucidity clue is so illogical to trigger you into saying "Hey, I'm dreaming." And here you might be triggered into "This does not make logical sense given the model." in order to expand your model right away.

i like this assertion:)


thanks for they replies, friends.

[Korpo]

Hello, pondini.


this makes sense when i consider all the NDE accounts i've read --how most-all people's experiences of the afterlife mirror their belief systems.

I think there's a deeper factor at work here.

Kurt says that we need images to represent to ourselves the nature of the energy we are perceiving. I found this to be true many times.

This would explain why sometimes we perceive nonsensical symbolical experiences - the translation is incomplete, garbled or there is no symbolic vocabulary matching the experience. If we just experienced what we expect, this would not happen. In fact, to me it indicates that we sometimes experience the unexpected and this is what really gives us trouble digesting the experience.

So, taking this into regard it is no surprise that people see what their culture would expect them to see. Just like the languages you speak shape what you can express (I challenge you to find an equivalent term for "dolce vita" in German :lol: ), the symbolical images of your culture are your primary dictionary for translating your experiences.

But look - a more technical-minded individual like Robert Monoe has a different experience. He literally sees things differently. Because what he sees is an interpretation of the energy present. Any image you see in nonphysical reality is not nonphysical reality itself. Some are therefore tempted to call these experiences subjective, and certainly the representation is. But I would be tempted to argue that beyond the subjective representation lies an objective energetic reality.

You can explore this "culture shapes what you see" idea by reading for example Kurt Leland's "The Unanswered Question," which describes death and afterlife from the perspective of different cultures (Tibet, ancient Egypt), NDers and individuals (Swedenborg for example). You could also grab Monroe's "Journeys out of Body" and compare the sequence with "the Big One" with how Robert Bruce describes "astral wind" in "Astral Dynamics." It was an eye-opener for me to get the distinct feeling that they were describing one and the same thing, but with different translation tables in their heads.

Be well,
Oliver

[Tutor]

wow, good stuff Korpo, and right on the money too. as you said, blows the mind and opens the mind to a lot of truth about being human.

[pondini]

Korpo,

one theory posited by bernard haisch is that all of reality is just a device by which the mind of God can learn experientially. assuming this is true, wouldn't the sum of all experiences be greatly diversified and much more numerous with the introduction of different cultural interpretations:)

i haven't yet reached the section in My Big T.O.E that documents the tandem experiences that the author (a physicist) and his fellow researcher (an electronics engineer) had while OOB, but from his interview on C2C Radio it seems clear they both experienced the same things, as well as had conversations verified by both of them to be real and accurate even though they were completely isolated from each other -physically- during the adventures. is it possible that they saw artifacts and beings in a starkly different subjective manner? i guess i'll find out when i reach that chapter.

your post made for good thought work, as always:)

i highly recommend anyone unfamiliar with My Big TOE to listen to this interview, it's an incredible theory on everything he learned while working with monroe...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gp8RcoX ... PL&index=0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gp8RcoX9qQ&feature=PlayList&p=8C11CB1C35F8C338&playnext_from=PL&index=0)

[CFTraveler]

I have (or had) the videos somewhere, but haven't had time to see all of them. One of these days...

[pondini]

CFT, videos of...?

[CFTraveler]

Of Campbell and his work My Big T.O.E.

[Ouroboros]

Korpo,
i highly recommend anyone unfamiliar with My Big TOE to listen to this interview, it's an incredible theory on everything he learned while working with monroe...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gp8RcoX ... PL&index=0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gp8RcoX9qQ&feature=PlayList&p=8C11CB1C35F8C338&playnext_from=PL&index=0)

Actually, most of his theory is based on explorations he had after his experiences working for Monroe. Those were sort of the springboard for his further investigations. He does talk briefly about some of the validating experiences he had while working for Monroe, but he doesn't really get into a lot of detail. As a matter of fact, beyond Section 1, there's really no detailed descriptions of his nonphysical adventures period.

[pondini]

CFT, i have one of his youtube seminars on my PC, it's 18 segments in total, recorded at London School Of Economics on Feb. 22nd 2008. is yours a different presentation?


Ouroboros, i'm sure you are correct. i think i was a bit unclear, i was referring mainly to the interview, it's very interesting! i've found a lot of inspiration in listening to the unscripted interviews of those more experienced in AP.

my copy of MBTOE has been gathering dust for some months now as i have problems turning pages (due to a spinal injury). i found a limited digital copy that i've been reading and i'm on the homestretch of finishing book One of the trilogy. if you don't mind, could you please give me your assessment of the trilogy, as a whole, without revealing too much?

thanks, all:)